OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Where did I ever state that I hold to universal salvation?
I did not say that you believed in universal salvation. Please read what I said and you will not be confused!
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What is your definition of foreknowledge and...
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I did not say that you believed in universal salvation. Please read what I said and you will not be confused!
Sorry OR, there is no way to unconfuse Willis!
:laugh::laugh:
(Willis knows I :love2: him btw)
I understand we disagree and when this thread is dead and gone we will still likely disagree but allow me to add.
In every example in Hebrews 11 one has to add in his mind, for they are not in the text, the words in God, or someone,something in order for, "the faith,"
to be of the one spoken of.
Whereas in every example that which took place could be just as well understood that it took place because of the work of God. Take the children of Israel at the Red Sea. There is no faith spoken of them up to the very moment of the parting of the sea. If anything the very opposite of faith is seen and heard from them. The Egyptians who followed them into the sea show as much faith as the children of Israel showed, and they were drowned.
Faith is (the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.)
Faith is not believing (the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen) will happen.
The life we are born with comes from God the Father. The life that we shall have comes through Jesus Christ the Son of God.
The wages of sin is death. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Jesus the only begotten Son of the Father, God, born a man child of the virgin Mary was paid the wages of sin for all mankind.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If we are to live eternally that life will come to through the resurrected (made alive again, regenerated) Jesus Christ. (Our life) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
That promise was made, before the world began, that is from the foundation of the world, when it was determined the Lamb of God, Jesus, would be slain.
That promise was made for Jesus the Lamb of God and was a promise of, hope of eternal life. It was based on obedience of faith for whom it was promised. Jesus inherited that promise, the grace of God through the faith. We are joint heirs of that same promise with Christ, heirs not yet inheritors. We have received the Holy Spirit of promise assuring us of our inheritance. Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through (meaning he received it that it could be given us) Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, (which has been given Jesus Christ by regeneration) we should be made heirs according to the hope of (that which Christ received) eternal life.
Titus 3:5 is what was done to Jesus by God the Father by which we can be given at his appearing eternal life. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
Would you agree that this makes sense other than you not believing Jesus died and needed eternal life given to him. Jesus the prophet said, John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; V21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Paul in 1 Cor 15:the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
Of course if Christ did not die for our sin then I do not know where we are.
Just to show this isn't far from the OP. Those he did foreknow are the firstfruits of those elected for this.
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Post 103 answers this also. It was the faith of Christ who received the grace of which we have access unto through Jesus Christ. Grace is eternal life.
And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup,(1 Cor 15:51 we shall not all sleep; but we shall be changed) and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: ( 1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 2 Cor 5:4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. ) eternal life.
Percho, if you believe God chose folks unconditionally, and then gave them Jesus's faith, then you believe what the Calvinists believe. I don't believe that.
I believe that God in his foreknowledge knew who would believe and chose them. God then called them, and when they believed in time God justified them.
God gives us everything we need to believe, but we must believe for ourselves, God does not believe for us.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
God has revealed his grace to us, he has shown it, it has appeared to us, but that is not the same as receiving God's grace. A person must believe to have access INTO this revealed grace.
Now, no one could be saved if God had not revealed Jesus Christ to us, so this is entirely God's work. Nevertheless we must receive this truth and believe it to be saved.. Again, God does not believe for you.
The scriptures show our faith is our own.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
If faith is a gift from God, why would Jesus marvel at the centurion's great faith? Did Jesus forget that he had given the centurion great faith? Absurd.
If faith is a gift from God, why did Jesus rebuke Peter for doubting?
Mat 14:31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Why would Jesus rebuke Peter for doubting if his faith was given him? Did Jesus forget that he only gave Peter a little faith? Again, this is absurd.
God gives us all that is necessary to believe, but it is our responsibility and duty to believe God. We have no excuse.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
We do not receive faith by grace (although grace did APPEAR to all men), we receive grace through faith.
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
God has infinite grace available to us, but we must believe to have access into this grace. Let not the man who does not have faith think he shall receive ANY THING of the Lord.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Can it be that Winman has inadvertently hit upon the essence of the Doctrine
He first states above: God gives us all that is necessary to believe. Very True! God regenerates, New Births, those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4] and gives us the faith to respond to the Gospel [Ephesians 2:8].
Then Winman tells us: but it is our responsibility and duty to believe God. We have no excuse. Again Very True! Most of those who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace believe that it is the responsibility of all those who hear the Gospel to believe. The term is generally called Duty-Faith. Some hyperCalvinists reject this doctrine.
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
To ask in faith.>
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.
John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
The grace of God that brings salvation, appeared to all men by the witness of the resurrection of Jesus the Christ by the apostles.
convicted1
Guest
I am NOT confused. You stated that if someone took this literally, it would mean universal salvation.
Now, would you please take time and debate the rest of that post? Thanks in advance if you do.
convicted1
Guest
What are you talking about? Now you have went and muddied up the already muddy water. Thanks Sissy!
No.
but it is our responsibility and duty to believe God.
because vis a vis Calvinism, this is somehing done entirely by God on auto-pilot, and there is no real sense in which this is a "duty" in any way carried out or performed by the regenerate person....if it were...it would mean synergism. <----rejected by Calvinism. Calvinism merely places the blame for failure to believe on the person. It does not give the person the ability to obey in Faith God's command to believe. Thus Calvinism merely teaches that man is to be punished or blamed for the failure to perform a Spiritual duty (respond in faith) he is not made able to perform....Kind of like beating a mule which you have tethered to a tree for failing to plow your field.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
convicted1
I have stated repeatedly that faith is an essential part of Salvation. In fact I posted the following on more than one occasion:
Conversion
"Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] In conversion the regenerate man exercizes the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:
John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:
Romans 10:9, KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
It is inevitable that a person who has experienced regeneration [the new birth] will also respond to the Gospel and be converted. Conversion is demanded by Scripture.
Matthew 18:2, 3 KJV
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced the grace of regeneration. As the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [2 Peter 3:18] he will come to more fully understand all the the grace bestowed with Salvation and, though they are freely bestowed, hopefully he will come to understand the infinite love demonstrated in the actual cost of Salvation."
"Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel, and turns to God in faith and repentance. [The Gospel call becomes the effectual call!] In conversion the regenerate man exercizes the gift of faith bestowed upon regeneration. Regeneration must precede conversion since Scripture tells us: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. [1 Corinthians 2:14] It is important to realize that conversion is a personal experience of a regenerate person with Holy God. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:
John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:
Romans 10:9, KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
It is inevitable that a person who has experienced regeneration [the new birth] will also respond to the Gospel and be converted. Conversion is demanded by Scripture.
Matthew 18:2, 3 KJV
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced the grace of regeneration. As the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [2 Peter 3:18] he will come to more fully understand all the the grace bestowed with Salvation and, though they are freely bestowed, hopefully he will come to understand the infinite love demonstrated in the actual cost of Salvation."
Now I don't know of any "hardshell" Baptist who doesn't believe that faith is essential in Salvation, particularly since it is a "gift of God". [I am sure you have heard some Old regular Baptists preach "light is life"!]
This is not what I said at all, you misrepresent me. Man is born with the ability to believe, we exercise faith in hundreds of ways every day. Even animals have the ability to trust or mistrust a person. The ability to have faith is innate in all persons.
That said, man cannot believe what he does not know or has never heard. Thus it was necessary for God to reveal Jesus Christ and the gospel to us before we are able to believe. So, in this sense God makes us able. But it is not necessary for God to regenerate a person to have the ability to believe, man is born with that ability.
The scriptures themselves describe it as God giving us light.
Mat 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Sight is synergistic, there must be light, but a person must also have the ability to see the light.
You and I are seeing persons, but we cannot see in a dark room. But turn on the light and we are able to see.
A person born blind cannot see. If you turn on the light they still cannot see. This is how Calvinism portrays man, but the scriptures portray us as seeing persons, only we cannot see because we lack light. When God provides the light (the truth, the gospel), then we can see. However, we can choose to willingly close our eyes and be willingly blind. This is what the scriptures show.
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus did not say some are blind in that they lack ability to see, he said they are blind because they have "closed their eyes" to believe. It is not that men are unable to believe, it is that they are unwilling.
Nowhere do the scriptures ever say that man is unable to believe. If man were unable to believe, then he could not be justly blamed for what he is unable to do.
This is simple, and you understand it quite well, but you willingly choose to believe your unscriptural doctrine.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I did not misrepresent what you said Winman. Imbedded in your long post is the statement and I quote:
I simply commented on your inadvertent endorsement of what you pejoratively call Calvinism.
No, you pulled one sentence out of the context of my post to intentionally misrepresent me. In the very same post I said earlier;
You did indeed misrepresent me, I in no way endorse the Calvinistic doctrine that God gives man faith. God gives man the information or knowledge that is the "object" of faith, but man must believe with his own faith.
Now, I will say this. Faith is a gift of God in that God gives all men this ability. This is no different from all our gifts, such as the gift of speech, hearing, thinking, smell, touch, etc... All of our abilities are God-given. In this sense faith is a gift.
The difference is that I believe all men are born with the innate ability to believe, you do not believe this. I do not believe a man must be regenerated to believe the gospel. In fact, I believe it is impossible to be regenerated until AFTER you believe, because until you believe your sins are not forgiven and you are still dead in trespasses and sins. Logically therefore faith MUST precede regeneration.
And I have shown numerous scriptures in the past such as John 20:31 that says a person must first believe to have life.
You cannot show any scripture that says a man must have life to believe, not one.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I recommend you read my response to convicted1 [post 111]! You might understand a little more of what Scripture teaches about the Doctrine
Well, it didn't take long, I disagree with the very first one, conversion. You wrote;
I disagree with this. My definition of conversion would be the conscious act of an UNREGENERATE person to turn to God in repentance and faith. Upon repenting and believing, God gives this person the power to BECOME a son of God. By the power and will of God they are then regenerated and made spiritually alive, born again, forgiven all their sins. This conversion is immediate upon the sinner repenting and trusting in Christ, but faith precedes regeneration.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You know as well as I do that verse 12 says to those who receive Jesus and believe on his name, to these persons God gives the power to become the sons of God. This verse clearly shows faith precedes being born again.
Verse 13 is simply explaining that this becoming a son of God is purely the act and will of God. God has willed that whosoever believes on Jesus shall be made alive, and that is exactly what God does when a person believes, he gives them the power to be born again and to become a son of God. Man cannot regenerate himself.
So, I haven't even read the rest, but I already disagree with your doctrine. Faith precedes regeneration.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Until we shed this natural body and are given the spiritual body we cannot trust ourselves. We can only trust in His word and walk by them, to beat this body in submission so we ourselves will not lose the prize in which the goal of our faith is the salvation of our soul. If you have not eating His flesh and drink of His blood you are not regenerated or have any life in you. So we trust in the Lord and rest in Him.
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Psalms, who said anything about trusting in ourselves? The question is whether sinful man has the ability to trust in Christ, or whether a man must be made spiritually alive before he can trust in Christ?
Trusting in Christ is not trusting in oneself. When you parachute out of an airplane, you are not trusting yourself to get you down safely, you are trusting the parachute.
Or, let's say a neighbor asks to borrow your car. You give them the keys and they drive off. You are not trusting yourself to get your car back undamaged, you are completely trusting your neighbor to take care of your car and return it undamaged.
Faith is a simple commitment. We trust our soul into Jesus's hands and depend upon him only to save us. We do not depend on our works or righteousness to merit our salvation, but upon Jesus alone to forgive our sins and save us.
So, I don't know why you said this.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
I'm confirming that we should never trust in our own understanding the carnal mind only in the Spirit which is in His word not our word and our understanding. We are all living and fighting against the carnal mind.Beating this body into submission
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humblethinker
Active Member
Are you out of your mind? ;-)
With what should I inform myself of His word? What information does He communicate to Christians so that they do not use their minds to come to a greater understanding? What doctrines do you claim to understand for which you did not use your mind to obtain that understanding? What doctrines do you believe that are unreasonable?
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