Guess the calvinist here are not the only group to have 'cracks among their camp" going, Eh?
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What is your view of death from Adam that all inherited
- Thread starter psalms109:31
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Guess the calvinist here are not the only group to have 'cracks among their camp" going, Eh?
I've received infractions (one from Skandelon that I didn't think warranted one, but that's neither here nor there), and 2 10 day suspensions, one for interacting with Luke, and one for defending a former member who had a weight issue that was being attacked. Your crying is coming off as quite juvenile. The PM I received was in response to reporting a post by one in your camp that stated non cal's / arminians "serve another god". The reply by the administrator stated he could not say it in the open forum for obvious reasons, but yes, he believes only calvinists serve the "true God" and I should stop complaining and start serving Him.
That begs the question, was it a "knee jerk inflammatory quip"? The answer is no. You clearly don't understand the atonement, heck...you don't even understand sola fide with your wacky two salvations! Your soteriology is a mess, so yes, it was not a sugar coated plea, it was one of aggravation...learn what the atonement means!
I see...so you go around on every thread crying "post reported"...but don't take offense when one of your own (albeit less hyper) attacks at will? There is a word for that... hypocrisy.
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I think someone else was passed the moniker The Sidekick
Nevertheless, Jesus used wind as an analogy of the Holy Spirit. The wind cannot be seen, but it can be heard, thus I believe Jesus is speaking of the word of God. The wind blows upon all men, not a select few, and I believe God shows the grace that brings salvation to all men.
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
I personally believe this grace that has appeared to all men is the word of God, because in verse 12 it says this grace teaches us. No man can know of Jesus and that he died for our sins unless it was revealed to him by the word of God. God does not zap people with this information, if you know of Jesus, it is because you either read the scriptures, or heard someone preach the scriptures.
This is what I believe Jesus means when he said we can "hear the sound thereof", he was speaking of the word of God which is available to all men. Whether a man hears the word of God and learns from it is his own choice, just as not all students learn the same in school. Some listen to their teachers, study and learn, others goof off and never learn. But the same knowledge is available to all.
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Jesus didn't say every man who is supernaturally regenerated comes to him, he said those who hear and learn of the Father come to him. The only way you can do this is by listening and believeing the word of God. Jesus was speakiing of the word of God in John chapter 6.
Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus said "the words" that he speaks are spirit and life, but some men believe not, therefore no man can come to Jesus unless it were given him of the Father. No man could possibly come to Jesus unless the word of God were given him of the Father. And no man can come to Jesus if he does not hear, learn, and believe the word of God.
As far as my position on man's state at birth, I agree with Webdog that we are born under the curse, and that all men die because of this curse. We are physically corrupted, and I believe this corruption is worse over time. We see the first men living over 900 years, but in a short time man's lifespan decreased to what it is today, 70 to 80 years. So, there is a corruption in place that decreased man's life span.
But as far as sin, I do not believe we are born dead in sin or separated from God. The scriptures say God hath made man upright, but "they" have sought out many inventions. I believe all men are born upright, but all men soon sin and spiritually die.
The scriptures do not show us being born separated. Read Luke 15 where Jesus is describing lost sinners. He said the shepherd had 100 sheep originally and lost one. The woman had 10 silver pieces and lost one. The prodigal son was at home with his father until he left his father and went out and sinned. When he returned, Jesus twice said he was alive AGAIN. You cannot be alive AGAIN if you were born dead.
1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
As Jesus described a lost sinner as a sheep that was originally in the flock but went astray, Peter describes us the same way. But now we are RETURNED to Jesus. You cannot return to Jesus if you were born separated from him in sin. You cannot return to someplace you have never been. I cannot return to Utah, because I have never been to Utah. I can return to California, because I have been there before.
Words have meaning, the scriptures say believers are RETURNED to the Bishop and Shepherd of our souls. So, I do not believe a man is born lost, but all men soon sin and become lost.
I don't really care what others believe, I can read. I will believe what the scriptures actually say, not what Augustine falsely taught.
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Do you ascribe "magical power" to the words of the Gospel, as Skan seems to affirm?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
One, I've never used the word's 'magical power,' but at least I credit the power to the same source the scriptures do, where as Calvinists credit it to some secret irresistible working never spoken of in the scripture. So, let me ask all of you Calvinists the same type of question, "Do you ascribe "magical power" to the secret irresistible working of the spirit, as Calvin seems to affirm?
There's one salvation. There's nothing whacky about making the distinction between the eternal aspects and temporal aspects of that one salvation. Much of this nonsensical incessant bickering would cease if that distinction were made.
I've reported six posts, five of them today, since becoming a member on the BB. In each case I've told the poster that I had reported it.
Can you say the same?
I'm a to your face sort. I never have liked coming in the back door on someone. Perhaps you don't appreciate that.
I'm doing this intentionally. Skan says before he can act the post needs to be reported. I believe I've set a good example for how to go about reporting an inflammatory post. Do it, and immediately let it be known that you did it.
OK, and yes, it can be difficult to let it slide, also I am not pointing to anyone in particular.
I certainly know I have been guilty of being verbally abusive towards others in the past.
Maybe not so much at the BB, but guilty none the less.
HankD
It's the supernatural power of God, man totally passive, Jn 1:13.
'Magic' is the abracadabra regeneration that you hold to; follow the formula, repeat the incantation, and, SHAZAAM! PRESTO CHANGO! BORN AGAIN! IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED!
The point seemed to get lost on you kyredneck, I felt one strawman attack deserved another, but instead of recognizing it for what it was you simply corrected one and continued the other.
Ok. I'll save it for later.
No, not "magical" power, but Divine power of the Holy Spirit , from God, as he would be the One that brings the effectual application of saving grace to us...
NOT based upon see future faith in us, not based upon IF we reject/accept Jesus by our own inate faith...
Its indeed the Gospel that saves us, but NOT printed word from the bible, but just WHAT that references to, the Cross of Christ!
False. Going astray from the flock as Jesus explained in Luke chapter 15.
Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Jesus here is describing lost sinners (vs. 7). He begins saying he had one hundred sheep, but one went astray and became lost. He left the ninety-nine and searched for the one lost sheep until he found it and brought it home.
Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.
I do not know who wrote this Psalm, but I know it wasn't Adam.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
This shows each man has committed his own sin. Every one has "turned" to his "own way". We are not guilty of Adam's sin, we are guilty of our own sin.
And this is how you will always see sin described, as a man "going astray" or "turning" from God, or "going out of the way", etc... All these verses show a man was first in the flock like the hundred in Luke 15, but then went astray and became lost. The man was with God, but turned away from God, or was in the way, but went out of the way.
The scriptures DO NOT show man born a sinner separated from God, they say God made man upright, but every man has turned from God, gone astray, or gone out of the way.
These verses are very plain and simple to understand, but many would rather hold to the false teaching of man instead of what the scriptures actually say.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Here, I have showed you scripture that says God made man upright. Now you show me even one verse that says man is born dead in sin.
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Fallacy: True, these sheep were already His sheep but following your logic only one out one hundred of His sheep become lost.
No, but David is one of his children. Notice that he says "I have gone astray" addressing his present tense sins.
Agreed, if we live long enough we follow in our human father's footsteps. Also, agreed we are not guilty of Adam's personal sins but have received the propensity and equipment to do that on our own.
But if what you say is true then babies would never die an untimely death until they sin. Since all die all have sinned. You can't have it both ways.
Animals prove my point they are not in the image and likeness of God being able to know good from evil and have not received the propensity and ability to sin no matter how long their life upon earth. They don't sin because they can't sin.
Given enough time an apple tree will blossom and produce apples proving it is an apple tree and a descendant of the original apple tree.
Yes, in the beginning man was made upright but he forfeited that status both for himself and his progeny.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
I know you have a different view of this verse from what I believe it teaches. Your argument would perhaps hold water without this verse but you haven't convinced me.
Rather you accuse me (and others) of following the teachings of man and in particular Augustine (in your earlier posts).
Augustine taught the doctrine of the Trinity in his Summa Theologica.
Following a derivation from the teachings of Athanasius as well as the Nicene Creed.
Does that make anyone who is Trinitarian a Catholic or a follower of false doctrine because they coincidentally afirm Augustine's trinitarianism?
My belief is derived from Romans 5:12 not from Augustine.
My belief from Romans 5:12 is that human sin is universal and unlearned meaning that it is part of our nature. We all have received the propensity to sin and given the time for our will to mature we will commit actual sin without being taught how to sin.
HankD
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How do we know that isn't so? Millions of children die. I could be wrong, but this would explain the elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son who never left home and never sinned.
Luke 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
The eldest brother was not lost, the servants (the angels?) called his father "thy father", he said he had never transgressed at any time his commandment. Romans 9:11 shows little children have not sinned.
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
Jacob and Esau were alive when God spoke of them in Rebecca's womb, and Paul said they had done neither good or evil. So, it is possible the eldest son is a child who died in infancy and truly never transgressed his father's commandment.
The father did not deny the elder son's claims, in fact he confirmed that the young man was never separated from the father.
Luke 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
The father himself called the eldest "Son" and said that he was "ever with me". This absolutely argues against being born a sinner separated from God. And the father said "all that I have is thine".
The prodigal son did not start out lost, he was home with the father just as the eldest son was, but he went astray and joined himself to a citizen of a far country (the devil) and became lost. When he repented and came home, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.
Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Say what you will, this parable by Jesus does not support Original Sin that we are born dead in sin separated from God. It argues that at an age of accountability a young man or woman chooses to go astray and becomes lost in sin. He was not supernaturally regenerated to repent but "came to himself". When he came home, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN.
This is not complicated, if we were born dead in sin, it could never be said we are alive AGAIN. This parable shows we are born alive, we sin and become spiritually dead, and if we repent we are made alive AGAIN.
Yes, but he is acknowledging his "own" sin. If we were born separated from God, then how could we go astray? Words have meaning.
But what of Jacob and Esau? Paul himself said they had done no evil. If they had died before being born or shortly thereafter, would they be sinners? No. I believe this is who the eldest son was in the story of the prodigal. He claimed that he NEVER sinned, and his father did not deny it.
All men die physically as a consequence of Adam's sin. But men die spiritually when they commit their own sin.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
God said the soul that sins, it shall die, and that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa. This is speaking of spiritual death.
You prove my point, animals cannot sin, yet they die phyically just like we do. Adam brought the curse, physical death upon all men. This is why babies die.
Jesus did not say we must sin because we are born sinners.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Jesus did not say we are born with a sin nature and are compelled to sin, he showed that we can "make" ourselves good or corrupt. We choose to sin, we are not compelled to sin. And we can choose not to sin.
Tell me, were you ever truly compelled to sin even once in your life? I wasn't. I could have always chosen to not sin and I know it. And I think you know it too.
It does not say that. The word "they" is plural and shows this verse is speaking of ALL men, not Adam. The word "they" points directly to the word "man" in this verse.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Yes, death passed upon all men because all men have personally sinned. But I am not sure scripture is addressing infants.
The verse says death passed upon all men "because" or "for that" all have sinned. Sin is something you commit, not something you are born with like blue eyes. No one is born a liar, or a bank robber, or a murderer, you have to commit these sins. Again, Romans 9:11 says Jacob and Esau had DONE no evil. You are not judged for your nature, you are judged according to what you DO.
Well, you simply agree with Augustine, Augustine was the first to argue Original Sin from scripture, and he used Romans 5:12 almost exclusively as his proof text. This is a fact.
The problem is, Augustine used a Latin text that said "in whom all have sinned" and not "because" or "for that all have sinned". Many Greek scholars have admitted that the Greek text does not support Augustine's interpretation, and the Eastern Orthodox Church which always had only Greek texts has NEVER agreed with Augustine. Look it up, it is an historical fact.
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Part 1
First there is IMO an abundance of eisogesis in your view and you read too much into the parable and simultaneously won’t allow for the application of your own views to be used in a rebuttal. e.g. As a logical conclusion only 1 out of a hundred (1%) of humanity would be lost in you view.
Second, the 2nd son is elder (older) that the first who has sinned and yet you say he (the elder) has no need of salvation? Possible, but IMO a stretch.
This parable could be a representation of Israel and the Gentiles as you have intimated Jacob representing Israel and Esau the gentiles who departed from God later to return at the preaching of the gospel.
Romans 5:12 is not a parable.
HankD
First there is IMO an abundance of eisogesis in your view and you read too much into the parable and simultaneously won’t allow for the application of your own views to be used in a rebuttal. e.g. As a logical conclusion only 1 out of a hundred (1%) of humanity would be lost in you view.
Second, the 2nd son is elder (older) that the first who has sinned and yet you say he (the elder) has no need of salvation? Possible, but IMO a stretch.
Yes words have meaning, again we are dealing with a parable and you have your own interpretation of its meaning. We have no definitive knowledge that this parable is dealing with “original sin”.
This parable could be a representation of Israel and the Gentiles as you have intimated Jacob representing Israel and Esau the gentiles who departed from God later to return at the preaching of the gospel.
Romans 5:12 is not a parable.
HankD
Part 2
Ezekiel 18 is speaking of the temporal infractions of the law of Moses and names several of them then says if the wicked will turn from all his sins (plural, only actual sins can be plural) he shall live.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
These are actual sins (plural) done under the Law of Moses from which if the sinner repents he will not die. A man's children under the law are not held responsible for the actual sins (plural) of his father.
Animals do not sin because they cannot no matter how long their life span because sin it is not part of their nature.
All human beings sin because they can and in fact will if they live long enough for their nature to mature into the manifestation of actual sins on their own part.
Adam was the point of inception of sin entering the human race; he changed and became mortal on the day he sinned passing it down to all of us.
Romans 5:12 wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Jesus simply meant to believe on Him and be saved. Notice He used the example of a tree and its fruit which springs from its nature received from the progenitor.
The fruit of the Spirit will then be manifested in our lives by the rebirth (receiving the nature of being born anew) rather than manifesting the works of the flesh of our adamic nature.
No, I just did what came naturally.
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Same situation with Romans 5:12 - by one man's sin, sin and death passed upon all.
BTW the Hebrew word for "man" in Ecclesiastes 7:20 is "Adam".
I have looked it up, I have formally studied Church History.
Although he was not a Greek scholar of high degree Augustine knew and used Greek.
If you want to agree with the Eastern Orthodox Church on this issue that is your choice.
I will admit that there is disagreement and confusion about the doctrine which is called “original sin”. Personally I do not follow any one teaching to the letter but you are correct that Augustine’s view closely aligns with my own which I developed on my own.
I realize that I may be influenced by my past experience and education, I do try to be honest before the Lord knowing that as a teacher I will be called to a greater judgment.
That it took a long time historically to develop this doctrine is really not an issue for me.
The doctrine of the Trinity took almost three hundred years to develop and was promulgated as a result of the Nicene Council as well as the influence of Athanasius.
As far as I know that doctrine is the doctrine that all regular Baptists follow.
Personally, I choose to connect both the sin and the death of Romans 5:12 as being passed upon all without any distinction of all including age.
My personal belief is that God does not hold those who have no discernment of good and evil accountable for their nature received from Adam (which would without exception bear fruit once it matures).
HankD
Ezekiel 18 is speaking of the temporal infractions of the law of Moses and names several of them then says if the wicked will turn from all his sins (plural, only actual sins can be plural) he shall live.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
These are actual sins (plural) done under the Law of Moses from which if the sinner repents he will not die. A man's children under the law are not held responsible for the actual sins (plural) of his father.
Animals do not sin because they cannot no matter how long their life span because sin it is not part of their nature.
All human beings sin because they can and in fact will if they live long enough for their nature to mature into the manifestation of actual sins on their own part.
Adam was the point of inception of sin entering the human race; he changed and became mortal on the day he sinned passing it down to all of us.
Romans 5:12 wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Jesus simply meant to believe on Him and be saved. Notice He used the example of a tree and its fruit which springs from its nature received from the progenitor.
The fruit of the Spirit will then be manifested in our lives by the rebirth (receiving the nature of being born anew) rather than manifesting the works of the flesh of our adamic nature.
No, I just did what came naturally.
Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Same situation with Romans 5:12 - by one man's sin, sin and death passed upon all.
BTW the Hebrew word for "man" in Ecclesiastes 7:20 is "Adam".
I have looked it up, I have formally studied Church History.
Although he was not a Greek scholar of high degree Augustine knew and used Greek.
If you want to agree with the Eastern Orthodox Church on this issue that is your choice.
I will admit that there is disagreement and confusion about the doctrine which is called “original sin”. Personally I do not follow any one teaching to the letter but you are correct that Augustine’s view closely aligns with my own which I developed on my own.
I realize that I may be influenced by my past experience and education, I do try to be honest before the Lord knowing that as a teacher I will be called to a greater judgment.
That it took a long time historically to develop this doctrine is really not an issue for me.
The doctrine of the Trinity took almost three hundred years to develop and was promulgated as a result of the Nicene Council as well as the influence of Athanasius.
As far as I know that doctrine is the doctrine that all regular Baptists follow.
Personally, I choose to connect both the sin and the death of Romans 5:12 as being passed upon all without any distinction of all including age.
My personal belief is that God does not hold those who have no discernment of good and evil accountable for their nature received from Adam (which would without exception bear fruit once it matures).
HankD
That is not my view whatsoever. In my view those who need no repentance are those who died before they reached an age of accountability. Paul shows that infants in their mother's womb have committed no evil. If a child is stillborn, would he be a sinner? Further, I believe many scriptures strongly imply little children are not held accountable such as Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, and Jon 4:11. If this is true, then small children who die are not accounted as sinners. There would be many millions (billions) of children who have died like this.
In these three stories, which are all one parable, Jesus said the angels in heaven rejoice over one sinner who repents. So, the father represents God in heaven. The elder son died in childhood and was there first.
All three stories show someone originally NOT LOST. The shepherd had 100 sheep, one was lost. The woman had 10 pieces of silver, one was lost. The prodigal son was originally at home with his father, not separated, but went out in sin and became lost. When he repented and returned home, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. If men are born dead in sin (which is an oxymoron to begin with), then it could NEVER be said that he was alive AGAIN, but that is precisely what Jesus said TWICE. The only reason you have difficulty with this is that you assume Original Sin is true.
Your view is completely out of context with the three stories. Jesus clearly explained he was speaking of lost sinners repenting, not Israel and the Gentiles.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
These stories are about sinners repenting, not Israel and the Gentiles. My view is in context, yours is not.
Agreed, but I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 5:12 which agrees with Augustine. Greek scholars admit that
Augustine used a flawed Latin text and that the Greek does not support his interpretation. From the earliest church history, the Eastern church that used only Greek texts disagreed with Augustine and have NEVER agreed with his concept of Original Sin. That is an historical fact you can easily look up online. To this day the Eastern Orthodox church does not agree with Augustine's interpretation. So, there have been hundreds of millions of Christians who did not hold to Original Sin. There were also many other groups such as the Anabaptists who did not hold to Original Sin, and John Smyth, the man historically cited as starting the first Baptist churches did not believe in Original Sin. My view is far more orthodox than you might realize. OS is a Catholic doctrine, nuff said.
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