What kind of virgin will you be?

[J. Jump]

npet you answered your own question and proved my point for me all at the same time

It is iniquity if you are doing these things for your own glory and not because you are doing the Father's will.

These things as you say are not bad things, but they were not the ones supposed to be doing them. The Father's will was for them to be doing something other than casting out demons and performing miracles.

I don't have any idea what they were supposed to be doing, but we can be sure that they weren't doing it.

We can do all kinds of Godly things, but if we are not doing exactly what God has called us to do then we are working iniquity, because we are not being obedient to God.

If God has called me to be a teacher and gifted me to be a teacher, but I never teach and just become something else that I think God has called me to then I am not being obedient to what God has called me to do.

If you are not doing what God has called and gifted you to do then you are working iniquity.

You know the old atage, man I wish I could preach like that or man I wish I could sing like that. And some people go as far as to attempt to do those things when that's not what they are called to do.

We must do what God has called us to do or we are being rebellious and we will get the same statement that they got even though we did so many Godly and spiritual things in this life.

Again I see nowhere in Scripture that says an unsaved individual can cast out demons.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
Again I see nowhere in Scripture that says an unsaved individual can cast out demons.

The magicians who served Pharoah could perform "miracles".

13 Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14 Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15 (One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16 Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

Were these Jews saved? I don't know the answer to that, but the way you've boxed up the facts without solid scriptural support, you have no choice but to say yes.

I think you are making an incorrect assumption, regardless of the explanation. There are several things wrong with your assumption.

1. Jesus did not say evil forces could not possibly drive out demons or mimic the driving out of demons. He said that He, Himself, was not driving out demons by the power of the prince of demons (beelzebub).

2. Even if evil forces cannot (or would not) drive out demons, the Bible never says that a person has to be saved in order for God to empower them to drive out a demon. In fact, this passage implies otherwise:

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."

[...] And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.

So the Pharisees were driving out demons. According to your (IMO false) assumption, the Pharisees would have to be saved to do that. However, they were the ones challenging Jesus, trying to discredit Him, and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

This is really all I have to say on this topic. I think it is so blatantly obvious that the people Jesus rebuked with "I never knew you" are unsaved that I can't see the point in discussing it anymore.

 

[J. Jump]

Again we're not talking about signs, wonders and miracles. I already posted that it is possible for Satan to manifest those.

However casting out demons is in a totally different realm.

If Satan R445 casts out Satan, he is F281 divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

That's verse 26 which you left out. There is no Scripture evidence that unsaved folks have ever cast out demons. It's impossible.

As to the salvation of the Jews I think there is strong Scriptural support that they were saved individuals, but that is for a different thread

 

[James_Newman]

Sometimes eternal life means life for all eternity, and sometimes it means life during the kingdom. You must rightly divide what the scripture is talking about. Is it something that is given freely? Thats a gift, and it is the gift of eternal life on the last day, when Jesus said let any who thirst come unto Him and drink. Is it a reward for works? Then that is the reward of eternal life in the kingdom, which is a special time of fellowship with the Lord given to those who will obey Him in this life.

God elects some to eternal life during the kingdom, yes indeed. Those will be the ones that, after believing, went on to perfection by adding works to their faith. You can't assume that you are elect just because you are saved. Thus all the warnings to saved people to fear God, to continue in good works in faith, knowing that God will reward those that do.

 

[Marcia]

Once we are saved, we are saved and have eternal life. We can't lose that or the benefits of that, ever. We are called sons and daughters of God and are His children by adoption. So is God going to un-adopt us? I don't find that in scripture!

For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, " Abba! Father!" Rom. 8.15

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. Rom 8.16-17

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, " Abba! Father!" Gal 4.6

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Hope of Glory
Until you quit equating salvation with justification, you will see many seeming contradictions in Scripture.

Huh?

Salvation and justification are the same thing -- we are justified in God's eyes at the moment of salvation.

The belief that justification and sanctification are the same thing is a Catholic belief.

Sanctification is a process, but not justification.

 

[J. Jump]

But you can lose life for the age between this age and eternity. Scripture does say that.

That's what most folks forget. It's not death and then eternity. It's death/rapture then 1,000-year kingdom then eternity.

Your salvation can not and will not be lost in regard to eternity, but your salvation regarding the 1,000-year period is still in play. One must be eternally saved (because they are made alive spiritually) in order to even understand what is available in the 1,000-year period.

Some will accept this and some unfortunately will not, but it will not impact their eternal salvation.

See we have to get away from the unbiblical idea that all there is is eternal salvation.

That is not the entire Gospel story. That's only the starting point of the good news.

See there is good news to spiritually dead folks and there is good news to spiritually alive folks.

Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures...was buried and raised again three days later according to the Scriptures is the only thing a spiritually dead person can understand (via the Holy Spirit).

But after they have been made alive spiritually they are in a position that Jews during the time of Christ were in and that's to accept or reject the coming kingdom.

 

[genesis12]

Sanctification is a process, but not justification.

Help me out here. If santification is a process, what am I at, let's say, point E? I started off, I assume, at point A, hoping to arrive at point Z. Or is hoping even involved, here? What's the root of sanctification? Is the process growing in knowledge and wisdom and strength and understanding? (Not that I disagree with you, Marcia. Just wanting to hear your understanding.)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Once we are saved, we are saved and have eternal life. We can't lose that or the benefits of that, ever.

No one here has said otherwise.

Originally posted by Marcia:
We are called sons and daughters of God and are His children by adoption. So is God going to un-adopt us? I don't find that in scripture!

All who are saved are children of God, and they can be placed into position of a son or daughter; but they may not be.

I think you are confusing adoption (son-placing) with being born from above.

And, as far as justification, instead of going into every last little detail, let's start with James 2:24:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is our salvation by works? No. But, our justification is. In this verse, "justified" is a present, passive, indicative. "By works, a man is being justified." It's durative.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by genesis12:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Sanctification is a process, but not justification.

Help me out here. If santification is a process, what am I at, let's say, point E? I started off, I assume, at point A, hoping to arrive at point Z. Or is hoping even involved, here? What's the root of sanctification? Is the process growing in knowledge and wisdom and strength and understanding? (Not that I disagree with you, Marcia. Just wanting to hear your understanding.)

</font>[/QUOTE]Sanctification is the process of being set apart through the work of the Holy Spirit and being conformed to the image of Christ. All believers are growing more toward the image of Christ -- this is God's work through the HS. We have to cooperate -- we can resist -- but it makes it harder on us if we do! We are not all at the same points of growth in Christ, of course, but all believers are being sanctified.

I thought this was just basic Christian 101.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by Hope of Glory
All who are saved are children of God, and they can be placed into position of a son or daughter; but they may not be.

I think you are confusing adoption (son-placing) with being born from above.

Adoption comes at salvation, which is being born from above. I don't see the distinction you are trying to make. Please explain and give biblical support.

And, as far as justification, instead of going into every last little detail, let's start with James 2:24:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Is our salvation by works? No. But, our justification is. In this verse, "justified" is a present, passive, indicative. "By works, a man is being justified." It's durative.

Justification in James is not justification at the point of salvation -- the latter is being made righteous in God's eyes. That happens at the moment one is saved.

The justification in James is that our works justify us before the world because it shows we are saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, this is being covered in another thread, but I'll ask you a question:

Why would a person who is born into a family need to be adopted?

 

[Andy T.]

Hope of Glory / J. Jump / James Newman:

Laying aside whether I agree with you or not on these issues, one thing I can certainly say is that what you are trying to express here is utterly confusing. I have no idea what any of you are trying to establish. It's the most confusing theology I've ever seen. It's almost gnostic-like in that it requires some sort of special knowledge that the vast majority of Christendom does not understand.

 

[J. Jump]

Andy T. I apologize for the confusion. Message boards make it hard sometimes for something to flow with any kind of smoothness or logic because there are so many posts that start chasing rabbits and lead into other areas.

This view of Scripture is far from Gnostic although I have heard that alot, because people think you need some sort of special revelation to see this. However that couldn't be further from the truth. These truths are laid out just as plainly in any Bible that you pick up. Scripture just says we have to have eyes to see and hears to hear. Nothing Gnostic going on here.

If you are interested in finding out more or at least getting a more clear understanding of what we are saying I would be more than happy to share with you one-on-one (just email me or send me a pm). Or if you would like to study some material on your own I can point you to some references that are available for free online.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Personally, I find it far more confusing to try to look at things willy-nilly such as we are part of God's family, but he adopts us afterward any way; trying to relate justification and salvation as being equal, but having the Bible say that spiritual salvation is an event based on the work of the Lord Jesus and justification is by works; trying to equate election with salvation, and seeing that one is by choice and one is by predestination by God; seeing that spiritual salvation is by grace apart from works, but seeing all these people being unsaved by their works.

Everything is laid out clearly in Scriptures, but you have to build line upon line and precept upon precept, and if you find something that seems to be a contradiction, find out why.

I grew up thinking that all Christians are saints, and election is spiritual salvation, and many other doctrines that when studied, Scriptures refute. But, I had a man in my church this past Sunday who made the statement, "I know that's what the Bible says, but that just can't be what it means; I've never heard that taught!" He could not refute it other than using human logic, could see the words on the page, yet still refused to believe them.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Personally, I find it far more confusing to try to look at things willy-nilly such as we are part of God's family, but he adopts us afterward any way; trying to relate justification and salvation as being equal, but having the Bible say that spiritual salvation is an event based on the work of the Lord Jesus and justification is by works; trying to equate election with salvation, and seeing that one is by choice and one is by predestination by God; seeing that spiritual salvation is by grace apart from works, but seeing all these people being unsaved by their works.

Everything is laid out clearly in Scriptures, but you have to build line upon line and precept upon precept, and if you find something that seems to be a contradiction, find out why.

I grew up thinking that all Christians are saints, and election is spiritual salvation, and many other doctrines that when studied, Scriptures refute. But, I had a man in my church this past Sunday who made the statement, "I know that's what the Bible says, but that just can't be what it means; I've never heard that taught!" He could not refute it other than using human logic, could see the words on the page, yet still refused to believe them.

Hope of Glory, there is just too much to deal with in this post for one little reply...

I think I need to spend some time on this. To Be Continued

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Personally, I find it far more confusing to try to look at things willy-nilly such as we are part of God's family, but he adopts us afterward any way;

No one has ever said (that I know of) that we are born into God's family (through salvation) and then, at a later date, adopted. What the Bible does is use many different illustrations of salvation - born again, adopted, transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, raised from the dead, given new life, being re-created, etc. All of these are true because the Bible uses them to describe the many different facets of the salvation that God gives us.

trying to relate justification and salvation as being equal,

This has been an argument I have been in many times. Often the Bible uses the term salvation to describe just that - justification. Ephesians 2:8-9 comes to mind. Often the Bible uses the term salvation to describe our final glorification. Sometimes the Bible uses the term salvation to describe our progressive sanctification. Sometimes the Bible uses the term salvation to describe the whole process from our election by God in eternity past to our glorification by God in the future. Sometimes the Bible uses the term salvation to mean something completely different from what you call spiritual salvation. You have to take the word in context (kind of like the word "all" or "world"!)

but having the Bible say that spiritual salvation is an event based on the work of the Lord Jesus and justification is by works;

You have to legitimately deal with these verses:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Either "justified" means something different in these two verses or Paul and James contradict each other. I take view one.

trying to equate election with salvation, and seeing that one is by choice and one is by predestination by God;

I don't know who you think equates election with salvation. Calvinists certainly don't. What we believe the Bible says is that election is unto salvation. Election is the choice by God, in eternity past, of certain individuals that He will bring to salvation. Salvation is an event that begins, in time and space, with justification by faith and continues throughout eternity.

seeing that spiritual salvation is by grace apart from works, but seeing all these people being unsaved by their works.

Not sure what you mean here. If you are referring to the Arminian position of losing your salvation, then I agree with your point. If you are saved by grace apart from works, how can you then lose that same salvation by failing to do works? Paul wrote the book of Galatians to talk about this very thing.

My view is that salvation is by grace through faith, apart from works, based on God's eternal decree of election. Because this is an eternal decree, and the gifts and the calling of God is irrevocable, then you can never lose your salvation, if you are truly saved. That last phrase matters because not everyone who claims to be saved really is. As many people have said, it is not the profession that matters, it is the possession.

I believe in a final judgement by works. But that in no way negates salvation by grace through faith apart from works. The works that are judged at the end of time are worked by God through a believer's life. Every believer will have those works. Every unbeliever will not have those works.

Everything is laid out clearly in Scriptures, but you have to build line upon line and precept upon precept, and if you find something that seems to be a contradiction, find out why.

Agree. There really are no contradictions in Scripture.

I grew up thinking that all Christians are saints,

You lost me again. All Christians might not live the way they should, but they are all called saints, in that they are set apart by God as His own. All you have to do is read who the letters of Paul are addressed to to see that these believers are all called saints, no matter what they live like.

Romans 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Philemon 1:4-5 I thank my God, making mention of you always in my prayers, 5 hearing of your love and faith which you have toward the Lord Jesus and toward all the saints,

This should be enough. Saints is not a special class of believers but a title signifying that all believers have been set aside by God.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Well, this is being covered in another thread, but I'll ask you a question:

Why would a person who is born into a family need to be adopted?

Being born into the family of God comes at the point of salvation - that is also when you are adopted! Being saved is being adopted as a son or daughter of God.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That certainly sounds confusing. Being adopted into the same family into which you're born?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
That certainly sounds confusing. Being adopted into the same family into which you're born?

I'll quote myself since you can't seem to read a few posts up...

No one has ever said (that I know of) that we are born into God's family (through salvation) and then, at a later date, adopted. What the Bible does is use many different illustrations of salvation - born again, adopted, transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, raised from the dead, given new life, being re-created, etc. All of these are true because the Bible uses them to describe the many different facets of the salvation that God gives us.