What Makes a Church Baptist?

[saturneptune]

The exact formula for being a Baptist church is that the attendence on Sunday morning doubles on pot luck Sundays. The Holy Spirit must hate those Sundays, as He has to work twice as hard convicting people to attend.

 

[Deacon]

Here's my list of Baptist distinctives, starting with the doctrine of baptism (where we get our name).

Baptism
1. Of believers only
2. By Immersion
3. Symbolic, not sacramental.

Salvation
1. By grace through repentance and faith.
2. Eternal

Jesus
1 Is God
2. Part of the Trinity
3. Pre-Existennt
4. Virgin-born

Ecclesiology:
1. Congregatonal church government
2. Pastor-elder-bishop and deacons
3. Independent and autonomous churches
4. Two ordinances--Baptism and the Lord's Supper, neither sacramental.

Scripture:
1. Inerrant and infallible revelation of God and his son.

Obviously, not an exhaustive list. And one can cite other denominations which hold to a lot of things on the list. To identify a Baptist, we have to take all these things together, not separately.

I think you've hit the nail on the head Tom.

Plenty of side issues to argue about that are outside the realm of being Baptist.

The church where I attend doesn't advertise that it's Baptist.
There's no Baptist name on the plackard, nothing in the literature...
but if you know what a Baptist is, you can read between the lines. :thumbs:

Many churches around the area have dropped the "Baptist" name due to its poor reputation.

Rob

 

[saturneptune]

I think you've hit the nail on the head Tom.

Plenty of side issues to argue about that are outside the realm of being Baptist.

The church where I attend doesn't advertise that it's Baptist.
There's no Baptist name on the plackard, nothing in the literature...
but if you know what a Baptist is, you can read between the lines. :thumbs:

Many churches around the area have dropped the "Baptist" name due to its poor reputation.

Rob

I have never understood why churches want to run away from the name Baptist. No one seems to hide the name Methodist, Presbyterian, or Church of Christ. One would think that what makes Baptists distinct would be worn like a badge of honor, especially in relation to baptism and autonomy.

If certain churches are ashamed of the name, then they should advertise the fact that they or non-denominational, or do not identify with any core beliefs.

Maybe autonomy comes with a price. If a Methodist church tried to hide its name, no doubt the higher ups would remedy the situation.

 

[Salty]

I have never understood why churches want to run away from the name Baptist. No one seems to hide the name Methodist, Presbyterian, or Church of Christ.
quote]

Actually at least one Nazarene and two Free Methodists and churches have taken the denomination out of their name
I think there may be some more, if I remember, I will post later.

Salty the Baptist

 

[saturneptune]

The question remains, what motivates a local church to take Baptist out of its name? What is it that they are ashamed of? If a church does not want to be Baptist, make it clear to the world you are not. Anything less is totally dishonest.

 

[gb93433]

A Christian who believes in baptism by immersion.

I know Presbyterian, Methodist, and Lutheran pastors who baptize by immersion too.

 

[gb93433]

The question remains, what motivates a local church to take Baptist out of its name?

Things like what one would read about at http://www.bpnews.net/pdf/OpinionandJudgement03-20-08.pdf
and
http://www.bpnews.net/pdf/Opinion-2ndSection03-20-08.pdf

 

[gb93433]

Maybe autonomy comes with a price.

All in the name of autonomy can be an excuse to not deal with real issues such as Paul dealt with in 1 Cor. It can be an excuse to avoid problems in another church and refuse to participate in church discipline. I experienecd a time when the local association would not stand with me in the local practice among the First Southern Baptist Church of . . . . in inviting the local Bishop to come and teach its members. However another local pastor stood with me but not one person from the SBC would. The association moderator told me that they could not because of church autonomy. Yet the local association continued to accept CP money from them.

 

[Jim1999]

If an adult requests baptism by immersion in the Church of England the vicar has no choice but to so immerse that person. It is church law.

Queen Elizabeth Ist was immersed...granted, at the wrong age, but immersed. All the old Anglican churches have a baptistry under the lecturn or somewhere under the floor in front of the church.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

The name Baptist was given by the enemy and was originally re-baptizers.

To-day, I think it mostly hinges on the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and the absolute truth of God's word..not getting into versions..the actual word that we preach.

When the RC church introduced the mass in English and the people were expecting sermons and not just the reading of the Bishop's homily, a local priest said to me: "Our people are expecting us to preach from the Bible now. I don't know how. You Baptists are well known for preaching from the Bible. Would you help me write sermons?" I wrote his weekly sermon for 6 months. He and I remain good friends to this day.

I did joke with him saying I wanted to meet his congregation at Sylvan Lake next Sunday. "Why?", he asked. "Well, for 6 months you have been preaching Baptist sermons and I would like to baptize them in Sylvan Lake." He just smiled, but we never did meet at Sylvan Lake.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[saturneptune]

All in the name of autonomy can be an excuse to not deal with real issues such as Paul dealt with in 1 Cor. It can be an excuse to avoid problems in another church and refuse to participate in church discipline. I experienecd a time when the local association would not stand with me in the local practice among the First Southern Baptist Church of . . . . in inviting the local Bishop to come and teach its members. However another local pastor stood with me but not one person from the SBC would. The association moderator told me that they could not because of church autonomy. Yet the local association continued to accept CP money from them.

It is funny you mention that. Our Bible study tonight is cooperative efforts from the BF and M 2000. We have been going through that for a few weeks now on Wednesday night. I realize associations and something like presbyteries are different. One has authority, the other is just a relationship among churches. I still think he should have stood with you.

We have had problems with associations here allowing local churches to accept alien baptisms, and and caused some division.

 

[gb93433]

I still think he should have stood with you.

Neither did one of the well known leaders in the SBC when I contacted him.

 

[TCGreek]

Simply put, Baptists got their name from their opponents because of their position on believers' baptism.

They didn't like it at first.

But later on, these "Baptists." like any other group, began to identify themselves by other practices.

And interestingly, these practices are not unique to Baptists.

 

[preachinjesus]

I would suspect that Roger Williams, John Smythe, and Thomas Helwys would find themselves as strangers in many of our closed Baptist congregations today.

Must say something when a founder of the movement would no longer be welcome in many of its parts.

 

[TCGreek]

I quite agree. I think it is a position that goes beyond Scripture. Too much human traditions!

 

[Jim1999]

John Smythe was credited with founding the Baptist Church, but there were baptist churches before his time in Wales and in other countries. The Welsh Baptists started the first Baptist church in England.

Smythe was never immersed and practiced alien baptism; pouring. He was a reformer, no question, but not really a Baptist. I can't remember if he ended up in a Congregational or Methodist assembly.

Roger William's did found the first Baptist Church in America. As a matter of fact, the Old Pilgrim Church at Plymouth became the first Congregational Church in America and Unitarian in 1801.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TCGreek]

John Smythe was credited with founding the Baptist Church, but there were baptist churches before his time in Wales and in other countries. The Welsh Baptists started the first Baptist church in England.

Smythe was never immersed and practiced alien baptism; pouring. He was a reformer, no question, but not really a Baptist. I can't remember if he ended up in a Congregational or Methodist assembly.

Roger William's did found the first Baptist Church in America. As a matter of fact, the Old Pilgrim Church at Plymouth became the first Congregational Church in America and Unitarian in 1801.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim, I'm not disputing you at this time, but what is your source? Thanks.

 

[mcdirector]

Maybe rephrasing the OP question can help us come up with the answers. I would ask, what doctrines and practices, taken together, would cause you to say, "why, that's Baptist"? Conversely, what doctrines and practices would cause you to say about a congregation, "well, they're certainly not Baptist?"

Here's my list of Baptist distinctives, starting with the doctrine of baptism (where we get our name).

Baptism
1. Of believers only
2. By Immersion
3. Symbolic, not sacramental.

Salvation
1. By grace through repentance and faith.
2. Eternal

Jesus
1 Is God
2. Part of the Trinity
3. Pre-Existennt
4. Virgin-born

Ecclesiology:
1. Congregatonal church government
2. Pastor-elder-bishop and deacons
3. Independent and autonomous churches
4. Two ordinances--Baptism and the Lord's Supper, neither sacramental.

Scripture:
1. Inerrant and infallible revelation of God and his son.

Obviously, not an exhaustive list. And one can cite other denominations which hold to a lot of things on the list. To identify a Baptist, we have to take all these things together, not separately.

On the other hand, if you leave some of these things off the list--such as baptism of believers only, salvation by grace through faith--then you ain't Baptist, regardless of the sign on your door.

I support Tom's list

But I happen to be of the same ilk of SBC he is.

 

[Jim1999]

TC....I am winging it just now but I know it is inA.H. Newman's 2 volume church history, History of the Christian Church, Lars P. Qualben and about 7 other history texts on my shelves.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[JDale]

John Smythe was credited with founding the Baptist Church, but there were baptist churches before his time in Wales and in other countries. The Welsh Baptists started the first Baptist church in England.

Smythe was never immersed and practiced alien baptism; pouring. He was a reformer, no question, but not really a Baptist. I can't remember if he ended up in a Congregational or Methodist assembly.

Roger William's did found the first Baptist Church in America. As a matter of fact, the Old Pilgrim Church at Plymouth became the first Congregational Church in America and Unitarian in 1801.

Cheers,

Jim

In 1609, John Smyth and Thomas Helwys led a congregation from England to Holland, fleeing religious persecution by the English Crown. They were Separatists, wishing to worship freely apart from the Anglican Church.

During their 3 years in Holland, the congregation came into contact with two movements from the Continent that impacted their beliefs and shaped their unique theological framework and practical ecclesiology. They rubbed shoulders with the Anabaptists (from whom they adopted Baptism practices), and Arminianism, from whom they formulated their soteriological views (the first recognized Baptists were general/arminian). In conjunction with the separatist pillars they had come to Holland with, they became a particular blend of theoloogy and practice that is rightly identified as "Baptist."

John Smyth, an Anglican priest to begin with, moved theologically more and more toward the Anabaptists, and eventually split with Helwys and the main portion of the movement to join the Anabaptists. In 1610 Smyth wrote his own "statement of faith," and in the next year, Helwys wrote A Declaration of Faith of English People Remaining at Amsterdam in Holland. The distinctions in the two are clear, and Helwys' confession can (and arguably should) be viewed as the first true Baptist Confession of Faith.

Helwys and his congregation returned to England in 1612, and founded what became acknowledged as "the first Baptist Church on English soil." Helwys was shortly arrested by King James I (The KJV guy!) and imprisoned, where he died in 1616 there.

Though I do not doubt that there were churches in Wales that were "baptistic," I've never seen any evidence that they identified themselves as such prior to 1609. That isn't to say there is no evidence, just that it is not acknowledged by most historians I am familiar with.

JDale