What Makes a Church Scriptural?

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by elijah_lives:
While I left the Church of Christ over doctrinal errors, as I stated, the interesting thing was that the members of that congregation showed far more "fruits of the spirit" than any other church I've visited.

How do lost people show "fruits of the spirit?"

I'm certainly not happy with the Baptist church I attend now, because they seem spiritually dead.

Don't blame all Baptists for your failure to pray about where you should attend church, then follow the Lord's leading. It seems to me that you made a wrong choice, but want to blame the people in that church for your wrong choice.

The Baptist views are closest to the truth, as far as I can discern, but TexasSky makes a very valid point. I could not subject my family to a re-baptism (in my wife's case, it would be her third, since the first was a sprinkling), and none of them would be willing to do so.

The point of Baptism is to identify with Christ. Christ's ministry/life was characterized by absolute obedience to the Father. When a person finds out their baptism was not scriptural but refuses to follow the Lord in scriptural baptism, then it becomes a question of their selfishness and not the Lord's righteousness. An obedient Christian does not say "I refuse."

While I see the need for baptism, these differences are nearly enough to drive us away from ANY church, because the attitude seems often to be that only their particular congregation is scriptural.

If your faith is so fragile that such minor issues can drive you away from fellowship with other believes, in violation of Hebrews 10:25, then, may I suggest, you might have a greater problem than just scriptural baptism?

I know my household is saved, because the "fruits of the spirit" are obvious in them, so that's why I am concerned over this issue.

The same "fruits of the spirit" you see in the lost Campbellites? Might the problem be that you don't seem able to discern the true fruit of the Spirit?

In our minds, we were complying with the Lord's directives, and my wife, in particular, is put off by being told repeatedly that her baptisms were invalid.

Are you complying with the Lord's teachings concerning scriptural baptism? And why should she be put off by those who care enough to tell her the truth?

 

[FundamentalDan]

Well, I would say there needs to be several things...

1. Proper baptism (already been discussed here)

2. Proper authority (the Bible as the final rule for faith and practice, the pastor as the leader of the church, and the members as the voting decision makers)

3. Proper doctrine (this encompasses a wide area, but every potential member would be wise to have a meeting with the pastor and discuss the doctrinal stance of the church. No good pastor that I know of would have a problem with this.)

4. Proper church membership and discipline policies (no unrepentant members living in open sin and no membership for usaved or unbaptized)

5. Proper focus on edification of the believer and evangelism to the lost (not overly skewed in the good works department to the exclusion of mandated church activities)

6. Proper view of pastoral authority and member responsibility (people unafraid to search the Scriptures to see whether the preaching is correct, and pastor who does not try to run all areas of people's lives)

7. Proper attitude (people not fake, fearful, or pharisaical)

Oh, and it sure would help if you let the Lord lead you to where He wants. When I left the dictatorial church I was in, I was not really looking for another church. I was mad and just about to give up. But, when I walked into the church I later joined, I knew it was the right one for me in the first service I attended. I am a fundamental Baptist, but the label does not always tell you what to expect. I will pray for you, Brother Tony.

 

[elijah_lives]

TCassidy

Who said I have fragile faith? It is unshakeable. I live in a town of 150 people -- churches are very limited here. I don't know about whether the people in the congregation where we were baptised are "saved" or not, but I suspect that they are. What I do know is that Scripture said "Repent and be baptized", so we repented and were baptized. Jesus said "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" and "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matt chapter 7). Looking at the description of the fruits of the Spirit in Galations chapter 5, and looking at the words and deeds of the congregation that baptized us, there was no question that they did, indeed, exhibit fruits of the Spirit. Wanting to be closer to the truth, we went to the current SBC congregation, and again, seeing their words and deeds, they do NOT exhibit anything close to the fruits of the Spirit as, again, described in Galations chapter 5. I'm not a moron, I can see the difference between good fruit and bad fruit. Draw your own conclusions.

I did not blame all Baptists. I merely stated that this particular congregation seemed spiritually dead. We complied with Scripture, but it seems like every congregation of MEN pulls this way and that. Men with attitudes like yours. Who art thou to judge? I think I agree with TexasSky -- we will not be re-baptized.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by elijah_lives:
Who said I have fragile faith?

You said, " these differences are nearly enough to drive us away from ANY church,". That seems pretty fragile to me.

It is unshakeable.

Then how can a simple difference of opinion "nearly drive (you) away from ANY church?"

I live in a town of 150 people -- churches are very limited here.

Are you willing to drive a little to find the right church? If so, tell me where you live and I will give you the names of some good church within driving distance.

I don't know about whether the people in the congregation where we were baptised are "saved" or not, but I suspect that they are.

The CoC teaches baptismal regeneration. Romans 11:6 seems to indicate they are lost.

What I do know is that Scripture said "Repent and be baptized", so we repented and were baptized.

But were you baptized. That is the question. If there was no scriptural authority to administer the baptism all you did was get wet.

Jesus said "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit" and "Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them." (Matt chapter 7). Looking at the description of the fruits of the Spirit in Galations chapter 5, and looking at the words and deeds of the congregation that baptized us, there was no question that they did, indeed, exhibit fruits of the Spirit.

Really? How can unsaved people, in a false church be called "a good tree?"

Wanting to be closer to the truth, we went to the current SBC congregation, and again, seeing their words and deeds, they do NOT exhibit anything close to the fruits of the Spirit as, again, described in Galations chapter 5.

So, the unregenerate display "fruits" but the regenerate don't? Maybe the problem is not with the fruit. Maybe the problem is with the "fruit inspector."

I'm not a moron, I can see the difference between good fruit and bad fruit.

Can you? It seems to me you can't.

Draw your own conclusions.

I already did.

I did not blame all Baptists. I merely stated that this particular congregation seemed spiritually dead.

How long have you been there and how much time have you spent with those people away from the church house? I have been Senior Pastor here for 20 years and I would never judge any of our people as being spiritually dead. I have no idea what they might be going through or how close they may be to the Lord without showing it off to everyone.

We complied with Scripture, but it seems like every congregation of MEN pulls this way and that.

What else is a congregation made up of? Are you looking for a perfect church? Why? If you joined it, it would no longer be perfect, would it?

Men with attitudes like yours.

What is my attitude? One that searches the scriptures to see if these things are true? One that loves the Lord and the Lord's people and would never issue a blanket condemnation of an entire congregation saying they are dead or that they are totally lacking in the fruit of the Spirit.

Who art thou to judge?

The spiritual man judges all things. Besides, didn't you judge your entire church to be dead and lacking in the fruit of the Spirit?

I think I agree with TexasSky -- we will not be re-baptized.

That's fine. Go find a church that will allow you to dictate policy to them. Good luck.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by FundamentalDan:
Oh, and it sure would help if you let the Lord lead you to where He wants. When I left the dictatorial church I was in, I was not really looking for another church. I was mad and just about to give up. But, when I walked into the church I later joined, I knew it was the right one for me in the first service I attended.

Amen, Brother Dan! That is great news.

We get a lot of people passing through here from other churches. Some from the type of church you got out of and some from churches that don't stand for anything at all. I deal with each of them on a case-by-case basis. When I discern that the person will not be a good fit here because of our stand on certain issues, I tell them they probably won't be happy here and recommend other churches to try. After all, if they are unhappy all they will do is spread that unhappiness to others. It is better to let them go than to bring dissention into the House of God.

 

[AVL1984]

Thanks for the prayers, Bro. Dan.

Thomas, you crack me up! LOL

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
Thomas, you crack me up! LOL

I crack me up too, but it is nice to know somebody else is equally entertained!

 

[Bunyon]

What makes a Chuch scriptural?
Why, adherence to the scriptures of course?

 

[robycop3]

I started in a nondenom church, which I left over doctrinal differences, I.E. regenerational baptism. I joined a SB church with my parents, but we all left it because they expelled a member for a sin which he confessed, a sin which would not have been known to man had he not confessed it. I then joined another nondenom church which seemed Baptist in every way but name. A few months back, I quietly left it(I held no office there; I was just another face in the crowd) and joined a Baptist church pastored by a long-time friend. I most likely won't leave there long as he pastors, as he preaches straight from the Bible, holding the Bible as THE final written authority in all matters of worship and Christian living.

Almost from the beginning of my life under Christ, I have been sola scriptura, not believing any man-made doctrines that aren't suupported fully by Scripture(That's why I utterly reject the KJVO myth) and the Baptist faith best represents that view to me.

My views on baptism? Scripture teaches us it's by immersion(The Greek word 'baptismo' means'to immerse' and is an everyday word for immerse.) is for believers, is a command of Jesus to be done if at all possible, and is a public proclamation of faith in and submission to JESUS. It is NOT necessary for salvation, as Jesus Himself shows us by saving the thief on the cross.

I was baptized in the Ohio River by the late evangelist R.A.West.(Dr. Charles Meadows, you're prolly familiar with him, right?) I see no need to be re-baptized, since I was saved when baptized, was immersed, and was baptized in public by a veteran Christian. No church to which I've belonged has asked me to be baptized again.

 

[robycop3]

What makes a church Scriptural? Why, following the Scriptures, of course!

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by Bunyon:
What makes a Chuch scriptural?
Why, adherence to the scriptures of course?

This I'm already aware of, friend.

 

[Bunyon]

I was just making a pithy response to your title.
I went back and read your post and see that you had some specifics in there. I think AndyT pretty much nailed it.

 

[AVL1984]

LOL...I know that you were being pithy, thus the smiley emoticon! If nobody has welcomed you yet, Bunyon, WELCOME!

 

[menageriekeeper]

You know it's kinda funny, a couple of months ago in this thread, http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/10/5119.html? ,I asked a distinct question about valid baptism and was basically told that having an unsaved person baptize me(unknowingly) would have no effect on whether or not I was truely baptized. That baptism was MY symbol of repentance not that of the baptiser.

Now here we are on another thread saying exactly the opposite! It can't be both ways, folks. Either baptism is a symbol of individual obedience and our own attitude is the important thing or we had all better be careful of who does the baptizing. Those of us who were baptized as children might better be baptized again cause we might not have been baptized by the proper person!

Or perhaps we better take our example from Christ Himself, who allowed John to baptize Him even though by John's own admission he wasn't worthy. The priority is obedience to the Father, not who does the baptizing.

The only exception I would make would be the case of someone coming out of Oneness Pentacoltalism. In that case they were never properly baptized in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit, but only in the name of Jesus. Here also I follow the example of Christ who commanded it be the first.

 

[AVL1984]

mk...good points!

 

[elijah_lives]

In my case, the issue is now moot. We discussed all of this in church yesterday; the congregation accepted our baptisms as valid, and voted us into the congregation. It was an answer to my prayers! The pastor said that some of the positions advocated here were overly legalistic, and that it was a good thing that our salvation was dependant upon God, not men. He said too many people were quick to judge who is saved, and who is lost.

My earlier discussion about fruits of the spirit was not meant to denigrate Baptists in general, but was meant to refute the assertion that members of the Church of Christ could not have them, since they were not saved in the first place. I've attended perhaps half a dozen CC congregations over the years, and each one was different from the others, being independent.

There's going to be a lot of people in heaven that we didn't expect to be there, so maybe we should start getting along with them down here!