What makes you a Baptist?

[Martin Marprelate]

Just my perspective, I see that you don’t like the pastor to be the elder, but the elders are pastors. It looks like the same thing to me.
I have seen several churches with multiple pastors.
Is the problem that they don’t spell pastor, e-l-d-e-r? I’m not seeing any other difference worth mentioning.

I’m not poking fun. This is a serious question.

No, I believe the pastor is, and must be, an elder. My only problem is with one 'monarchical' pastor and no elders, although, as I wrote, this may be the only option for some very small churches. My pastor was the only elder until he invited me to join him.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Congregational governance is the Baptist and Biblical way. Versus the monarchical Episcopal and oligarchical Prebyterian schemes that have been cooked up by Catholic/Anglican/etc and Reformed.

The reason we settled on calling our ministers pastors, is that 'bishop' and 'elder' have been so twisted in meaning in our language by those systems. And why anyone would prefer 'overseer', so associated in our language with the system of slavery, is beyond me!

I'm sorry but 'overseer' is what episkopos means. You live in a country where 'overseers' were once slave-drivers; I don't. The overseer/elder should be the servant of the congregation, not the master.

 

[Jerome]

'overseer', so associated in our language with the system of slavery

You live in a country where 'overseers' were once slave-drivers; I don't.

Oh brother.
John Newton knew, didn't he?
or Charles Spurgeon? ("like slaves driven to their toil by the overseer’s lash", in his sermon The Lord's Chosen Ministers)

 

[Ben1445]

I will have to let Martin answer for Martin (I already stated what I thought his objection was to).
I am qualified to answer for ME (no mind-reading required)

Church government form is almost irrelevant. All forms have inherent strengths and weaknesses. In my experience, the "weak link" always seems to be the need to place "governing power" into the hands of PEOPLE. PEOPLE are innately flawed and (even at their best) prone to both error and corruption (being made more flawed). Jesus was clear that in His kingdom, the leaders were to be servants of the rest (the greatest was to be the slave of the others) ... the Apostles failed to get it in the Gospels and we living today don't do any better.

So, I don't sweat church organization as much as some. When I encounter a pastor that needs to "manage" everything, I step back and look for someplace else to invest my time [The pastor preaches, his wife runs the sound booth, his mother is in charge of ...]

That’s not very helpful. I find that at times the pastor wants to involve people but can’t find anyone else, so he obligates his own family.
Leaving early without telling him that you want to help and where you can seems like the best way to leave them in your description of incorrect.

I accept that things are just how they are. God changes hearts, I have no power in that area. I accept that he is making things harder for himself and leaving people who want to help with a discouraging number of "naysayers". I once heard someone describe it as "OK, I guess I am just a 'tither'." when all her offers to help were met with "So-and-So does that; we don't need any help".

Once upon a time I was appointed Elder over the Children's Ministry, I had a lot of good teachers that loved the children and wanted to teach them. They didn't need a "boss" to tell them what to do. They needed a "lineman" to play defense. My primary duty was to listen to all the advice from well meaning people about how OTHER PEOPLE should be doing additional work or doing things different (but they had no desire to participate in the actual work) and to smile and ignore their suggestions ... thus protecting those with a heart for children from interference by those wishing to control them. I strove for service to the "deacons" (those doing the work) rather than authority over them. My "authority" was a mandate to protect.

I have observed that the larger the church, the further removed the "Pastor" is from the "least of these". Probably unavoidable, but not the model that Jesus set up in the NT. As Baptists, we claim to desire to follow the NT model ... which is about HEARTS and MINDS more than organizational structures.

This is not necessarily true either. Thousands were added to the church in Jerusalem. Jesus had nothing to do with that? Jesus didn’t want that?

[... but what do I know. I am just a former atheist thug trying to figure out this whole GOD among Us thing.]

 

[Ben1445]

No, I believe the pastor is, and must be, an elder. My only problem is with one 'monarchical' pastor and no elders, although, as I wrote, this may be the only option for some very small churches. My pastor was the only elder until he invited me to join him.

By your own definition the monarchical pastor is an elder. There could not then be a pastor, regardless of governing style, and no elders.
I might give you a definition exception if you were saying that they had elders and no pastors.
What always confuses me in this conversation is the inconsistency in the use of terms.

 

[Jerome]

My problem...[is] with the use of the word Pastor.

Have you ever noticed how those at the 1689 London Baptist Assembly signed their Confession?

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Twenty six as 'Pastor'. Eight, as 'Minister'. One, as 'Preacher'.
None as 'Elder' or 'Bishop'. None as your preferred 'Overseer'.

"Hanserd Knollys, Pastor, Broken Wharf London
William Kiffin, Pastor, Devonshire-square London
John Harris, Pastor, Joiner's Hall London
William Collins, Pastor, Petty France London
Hercules Collins, Pastor, Wapping London
Robert Steed, Pastor, Broken Wharf London
Leonard Harrison, Pastor, Limehouse London
George Barret, Pastor, Mile End Green London
Isaac Lamb, Pastor, Pennington-street London
Richard Adams, Minister, Shad Thames Southwark
Benjamin Keach, Pastor, Horse-lie-down Southwark
Andrew Gifford, Pastor, Bristol, Fryars Som. & Glouc.
Thomas Vaux, Pastor, Broadmead Som. & Glouc.
Thomas Winnel, Pastor, Taunton Som. & Glouc.
James Hitt, Preacher, Dalwood Dorset
Richard Tidmarsh, Minister, Oxford City Osen
William Facey, Pastor, Reading Berks
Samuel Buttel, Minister, Plymouth Devon
Christopher Price, Minister, Abergavenny Monmouth
Daniel Finch, Minister, Kingsworth Herts
John Ball, Minister, Tiverton Devon
Edmond White, Pastor, Evershall Bedford
William Pritchard, Pastor, Blaenau Monmouth
Paul Fruin, Minister, Warwick Warwick
Richard Ring, Pastor, Southampton Hants
John Tompkins, Minister, Abingdon Berks
Toby Willes, Pastor, Bridewater Somerset
John Carter, Steventon Bedford
James Webb, Devizes Wilts.
Richard Sutton, Pastor, Tring Herts
Robert Knight, Pastor, Stukeley Bucks
Edward Price, Pastor, Hereford-City Hereford
William Phipps, Pastor, Exon Devon
William Hankins, Pastor, Dimmock Gloucester
Samuel Ewer, Pastor, Hemstead Herts
Edward Man, Pastor, Houndsditch London
Charles Archer, Pastor, Hick-Norton Oxon"

 

[JesusFan]

Hopefully this is an interesting and enlightening thread.

So, what makes you a Baptist?

As for me, I hold to all of the "Baptist Distinctives". I have tried to fit in elsewhere, for various reasons, but I have found it very difficult to give up any of the Baptist distinctives.

Like the theology, adn that each church can run as they see fit, and that we can see doctrines and theology as we see the bible as teaching

 

[atpollard]

By your own definition the monarchical pastor is an elder. There could not then be a pastor, regardless of governing style, and no elders.
I might give you a definition exception if you were saying that they had elders and no pastors.
What always confuses me in this conversation is the inconsistency in the use of terms.

"an elder" = one among several
"monarchical pastor" = the ONLY elder (a council of 1)

Got Questions:
Proverbs 15:22 says, “Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established” (KJV). Proverbs 11:14 and 24:6 also mention the value of a “multitude of counselors” or having “many advisers.” The general principle is that there is wisdom in seeking a wide range of advice from others instead of relying solely on one’s own knowledge or intuition. Considering other points of view and drawing on the experience of others is good.

 

[atpollard]

That’s not very helpful. I find that at times the pastor wants to involve people but can’t find anyone else, so he obligates his own family.
Leaving early without telling him that you want to help and where you can seems like the best way to leave them in your description of incorrect.


This is not necessarily true either. Thousands were added to the church in Jerusalem. Jesus had nothing to do with that? Jesus didn’t want that?

You may be correct, but the number of churches shrinking rather than growing suggests I may have a valid observation: people come, are unable to find purpose or connection within the body, and leave.

Let me ask another question:
At a Church Social (anything with food), do the same people always sit together? What message have you sent to all the new people?
[Who knew Sociology and Cultural Anthropology would actually be useful?]

 

[Ben1445]

You may be correct, but the number of churches shrinking rather than growing suggests I may have a valid observation: people come, are unable to find purpose or connection within the body, and leave.

Let me ask another question:
At a Church Social (anything with food), do the same people always sit together? What message have you sent to all the new people?
[Who knew Sociology and Cultural Anthropology would actually be useful?]

If that is what your church is doing, be the change you want to see in your church. Don’t abandon it like you are Cinderella’s stepsister.

No that is not the way we behave at our church.
But we are never told to have our neighbors love us. We are told to love our neighbors. And our enemies. So what difference does it make if nobody sits beside you. They are shy. Let them commit to their seats and sit down after them. Then get to know them. Offer to get their coffee.
Proverbs 18:24
A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly:
and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother.

It doesn’t help to sit around and say nobody treats me right.

 

[Ben1445]

"an elder" = one among several
"monarchical pastor" = the ONLY elder (a council of 1)

Got Questions:
Proverbs 15:22 says, “Without counsel purposes are disappointed: but in the multitude of counselors they are established” (KJV). Proverbs 11:14 and 24:6 also mention the value of a “multitude of counselors” or having “many advisers.” The general principle is that there is wisdom in seeking a wide range of advice from others instead of relying solely on one’s own knowledge or intuition. Considering other points of view and drawing on the experience of others is good.

I will have a hard time remembering your definitions since monarchical pastor is not a biblical term. Nicolaitan is. But pastor already has a proper definition and I will never be able to straighten out whether or not you like them when you say pastor.
Pastor is a good title. I get the impression that you don’t use it that way.

 

[Salty]

This thread OP was about what makes a person a Baptist -
However it has gone the way of Pastor vs Elder

Thus I have started a new thread on that subject

So, lets get this OP back to the original purpose

 

[atpollard]

This thread OP was about what makes a person a Baptist -
However it has gone the way of Pastor vs Elder

Thus I have started a new thread on that subject

So, lets get this OP back to the original purpose

I embrace the concept of "multiplication by division" (like 'any True Baptist') as demonstrated in our willingness to split over "Pastor" vs "Overseer" vs "Elder" as the CORRECT BAPTIST title.

 

[Ben1445]

I embrace the concept of "multiplication by division" (like 'any True Baptist') as demonstrated in our willingness to split over "Pastor" vs "Overseer" vs "Elder" as the CORRECT BAPTIST title.

A true Baptist distinctive.

 

[Ben1445]

There are various versions of the Baptist Distinctives, but to me a normative version is one that has five or six valid points, not dumbing down what a Baptist is, but not overdoing it either. There have been Baptists like this ever since the English Baptists at the beginning of the 17th century. Deacon's list in the previous post is pretty normative, and I agree with it, but it's a little longer than the one my mission board for many years, and now my church and college.

Also, I have to say that most Baptists, especially independent Baptists like me, do not call "Baptist" a denomination. There is no headquarters and no denominational structure--though many call the SBC and ABC denominations because they do have somewhat of that.

So to get this thread on track, we have demonstrated that there are different versions of distinctives.

Even where SBC and ABC are involved, there is generally little say that the association can have. (outside of where a church may owe them money on a loan)
The association is more likely to excommunicate the church for not contributing. It doesn’t really change what happens in the church.
I’m sure there are scenarios that don’t fit this. Our own church struggles to get an old association removed. It’s kind of like a bad tattoo.

 

[JonC]

I hold a few things Baptists believe as a priority in how churches should operate. These include congregational rule (no ruling elders), believers baptism, and church autonomy.

Back in the day the Baptists also served some good food.

 

[Ben1445]

I hold a few things Baptists believe as a priority in how churches should operate. These include congregational rule (no ruling elders), believers baptism, and church autonomy.

Back in the day the Baptists also served some good food.

And if anyone has a Baptist flag (which I didn’t know existed til last year) the proper storage and display is neatly kept under glass, (casserole dish)

 

[Ben1445]

And if anyone has a Baptist flag (which I didn’t know existed til last year) the proper storage and display is neatly kept under glass, (casserole dish)

But this is not a required distinctive. I don’t have a flag and I’m still a Baptist.

 

[JonC]

And if anyone has a Baptist flag (which I didn’t know existed til last year) the proper storage and display is neatly kept under glass, (casserole dish)

I had to look they one up (the Baptist flag). I guess a Christian one just wasn't good enough?

 

[37818]

Having or not having a flag is not a New Testament issue.
Acts 20:20 is a New Testament issue, Acts 20:20-21, And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.