What matters is keeping the Commandments of God

[DHK]

Doesnt make sense DHK. If you are an unsaved catholic or a benny Hinnster you cant fall away as you were never there to begin with.

There are many "unsaved" in the realm of Christendom who apostatize to Islam quite often. Islam claims them as converts from Christianity, though they were never saved in the first place. The same concept will be taking place.

 

[Chowmah]

There are many "unsaved" in the realm of Christendom who apostatize to Islam quite often. Islam claims them as converts from Christianity, though they were never saved in the first place. The same concept will be taking place.

DHK
Didnt you just read the scriptures which speak of the falling away and the one who exalts himself. Daniel 11 comes out and tells ya who they are that fall away. Just read and believe.

 

[BobRyan]

Doesnt make sense DHK. If you are an unsaved catholic or a benny Hinnster you cant fall away as you were never there to begin with. In fact those who "fall away" will be those who understand

Preach it!

Those who fall away are not "falling away from being lost". If they were we would all applaud!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Your argument is with the text"

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

There is no point in continuing this discussion with you. You are a blind man that will stay blind....

Less smoke - more fire.

In Rom 3:9-12 Paul says ALL have sinned. Obviously

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written, "" THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.''

But in vs 3:9 he also says he has already shown that ALL are under sin.

Clearly he does claim that in vs 10 and 11 but where did Paul show/indicate/hint that ALL are unrighteous before 3.9?

There is only ONE place in Romans where every man is found to be a sinner prior to 3:9 – that is in vs 3:4!

3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "" THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.''
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? ( I am speaking in human terms.)
6 May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?
7 But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?


8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "" Let us do evil that good may come''? Their condemnation is just.

 

[Dr. Walter]

All smoke and no fire! Your argument is with Paul not me. He is the one who used the words you don't like

"ARE WE BETTER THAN THEY"

You haven't even touched the contextual evidence I placed squarely in front of you. Your simply playing dodge ball.

You cannot take the Word of God for what it says in clear black and white can you??????

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

The pronoun "we" is defined by the text WE THE JEWS. The Question is "ARE WE BETTER THAN THEY? The question is not are we "LOST" but are "WE BETTER." He does not say we have prove we are all "LOST"!! He says we have proved that both Jews and Gentiles are equally "UNDER SIN"

Now, Why would have to prove WE THE JEWS are not BETTER THAN THE GENTILES, meaning we the Jews are NOT UNDER SIN but the Gentiles are?

This is so simple and so clear and yet you cannot even accept his language or meaning. You have to substitute His words for your words and his explicit meaning for your meaning. Why? Because you must change God's Word to suit your heresies.

Where in the previous context does the "idea" of "BETTER THAN" thou occur?

1. In Romans 1:1-18? No!

2. In Romans 1:18-31? No!

3. In Romans 2:1-29? YES

That is precisely what is stated in Romans 2:1-5. That is precisely what is sated in Romans 2:17-29. Anyone that can read the English language can easily see that the "man" in Romans 2:1-5 is judging others and "thinketh" that they will escape the judgement because they are better.

Anyone capable of reading the English langauge can easily read Romans 2:17-25 and read that the Jew is BOASTING himself BETTER than the Gentiles because of the Law.

Anyone capable of reading the English language can easily read Romans 2:25-27 and easily seem that Paul is dealing with the Jewish boast grounded in circumcison.

But Bob cannot see what is plain and clear and simple but must substitute Paul's words in Romans 3:9 with his own words and must change the argument of Paul to Bob's argument. Why? Because Bob refuses to deal with the Word of God honestly and with integrity.



Proving that all are under sin is necessary to prove that all are lost and need salvation. However, Paul cannot prove that all are lost and in need of salvation until he first proves that none are better than others but all are equally under sin AND that no one can be justified under law by good works (Rom. 3:19-20). Why must he prove this first? Obvioulys because there are some who believe they are BETTER than others and that is clearly pointed out in Romans 2:1-5; 17-29 and finally admitted by the objector to Paul in Romans 3:1

1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Why does Paul consider this question , What ADVANTAGE THEN HATH THE JEW, if Paul had not just proven there was no advantage and that circumcision does not give the Jew advantage over the Gentile in regard to the judgment under law (Rom. 2:6-16)??????????????????????????

 

[BobRyan]

As already said -

There is only ONE place in Romans where every man is found to be a sinner prior to 3:9 – that is in vs 3:4!

Your argument is with the text.

It is NOT in Rom 2 because there we find BOTH Jew AND Gentile receiving the reward of eternal life.

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.


In Romans 2 Paul does NOT argue "all Jews are lost" rather he argues that every man among the Jews and the Gentiles (BOTH groups) will go to heaven if the fruits show the born-again New Covenant result of a good tree, and every man among BOTH Jews and gentiles that shows the result of bad fruit will be found to be a bad tree - and will in the end - to to hell based on an unbiased impartial law regarding the fruit of the good tree vs the bad tree.

A principle Christ himself identifies in Matt 7.

Paul says that this is IN the context of the Gospel call to repentance and the Gospel good news of the future judgment where as Daniel notes "Judgement is passed in favor of the saints".

It just does not get any easier than this!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

As already said -

There is only ONE place in Romans where every man is found to be a sinner prior to 3:9 – that is in vs 3:4! [/QUORE]


Bob, You TWIST and PERVERT God's Word to satisfy your own belly(desires). Any of readers can plainly see you don't know what you are talking about.

For example, Paul says in Romans 3:9 "we have BEFORE PROVED" (1) we are no better than they are; (2) all are under sin; but you quote Romans 3:4 where there is NO EVIDENCE provided for either. Romans 3:4 merely DECLARES all men liars but offers NO PROOF that "we are better than they" OR "that all are under sin."

You are a desperate man who speaks foolishly. Romans 3:4 is a DECLARATION with no attempt to prove that Jews are no better than Gentiles. Romans 3:4 is a DECLARATION with no attempt to prove all men are under sin.

Rom. 2:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

It is NOT in Rom 2 because there we find BOTH Jew AND Gentile receiving the reward of eternal life.

This is a statement of pure willful ignorance! Romans 2:1-5 and Romans 2:17-29 are the ONLY PREVIOUS CONTEXTS where the subject of BETTER THAN OTHERS is directly addressed and PROOF is offered by Paul to demonstrate that such who JUDGE OTHERS are "under sin" as much as those they judge.

1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Even the baby Christian can look at these texts and see that Paul is dealing with those who think they are better than others and that Paul is offering PROOF that they are as much under sin as those they are judging.

YOUR ARGUMENT IS NOT MERELY WITH THE TEXT BUT WITH THE USE OF COMMON SENSE!

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

There is only ONE place in Romans prior to Rom 3:9 where "all are under sin" where "every man is found to be a sinner" – that is in vs 3:4!

Rom3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "" THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.''

Hint: at NO point does Paul say in Romans 2 "All are under sin" or "every man is going to hell" nor even "every man is a liar".

RATHER in Romans 2 (as in Romans 1 ) Paul identifies BOTH the succeeding cases (good trees and good fruit as we find in Matt 7) and the failing cases.

And Paul ends Romans 2 with this incredibly obvious Gospel point about the new birth new-creation work done by the Holy Spirit on the heart. A work that produces the good-fruit of obedience to God -

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,


Instead of "both Jews and Gentiles are all going to hell" as some have "imagined".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.

What is truely impossible to miss is your pure EISGESIS - reading into this text what does not exist but which you FABRICATE out of pure imagination. Romans 2:26-29 is proving that circumcision does not make the Jew SUPERIOR to the uncircumcised Gentile UNLESS He keeps every point of the law:

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

The context is JUSTIFICATION UNDER LAW (vv. 12-13) BY THE LAW and the the Jew makes his boast that he will be justified by his obedience to the Law (vv. 17-24).

If you cannot see that Paul is presenting the Jew as those who perceive themselves as KEEPERS of the Law and therefore SUPERIOR to the Gentiles because of the Law then you can't read or understand English:

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

If you cannot see that Paul condemns their boast in verse 24 as a false perception of keeping the law then you cannot either read or understand English:

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.[/COLOR]

If you cannot see that Paul is dealing with circumcision as part of the Jewish boast of better than the Gentile and proving it does not make them better than you cannot read or understand English. First, Paul provides the only way that cirucumcision can PROFIT the Jew in the day of Judgement OVER the Gentile and that is according to the following principle:

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: .[/B][/COLOR]

He is saying what James 2:10 says. One point does you no good unless you keep all points of the Law. He is saying the same thing as he said in Galatians 2:12 that for one to be justified by law keeping one must "continue in ALL THINGS....that are written in the book of the law to do them."


But what happens if you "be" a breaker of the law? What profit is your ONE POINT of keeping the law of circumcision?

25.....but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision

How does God view obedience to circumcision by the Jew if they do not keep all the rest of the Law? In God's sight it is "made uncircumcision" and has NO PROFIT in the day of judgement and make the Jew NO BETTER than the uncircumcised gentile. If you cannot see this is what Paul is saying it is because you either cannot read or understand English.

Now Paul simply reverses this in application to the Gentile who is NOT CIRCUMCISED but does keep every point of the law revealed to him by means of conscience (vv. 14-15) which is the only law God has given them and therefore the only law they will be judged by (v. 12a, 14):


12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The Jew does not keep the law as the law requires when they have been given the law. The Gentile who has not been given the law and knows nothing about the Law of Moses, but has the moral law written on his conscience. IF he is able to do with his law what the Jew has been proven not to be able to do with the law given to him (KEEP ALL POINTS) then his UNCIRCUMCISED physical state will be regarded as a CIRCUMCISED physical state. Notice that the Gentile must "FULFILL THE LAW" as given to him just as the Jew must "KEEP THE LAW" given to him (v.27). THIS IS ABOUT KEEPING THE LAW AS DEFINED IN VERSES 17-20 which is the same moral law written on the Gentile heart - this is LAW KEEPING not justification by faith in either case:

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

So if the Gentile can KEEP THE LAW written on his conscience he will "JUDGE THEE" instead of the Jew JUDGING THE GENTILE. Paul is dealing with the BETTER THAN THOU mindset which has its basis in LAW KEEPING not justification by faith

Therefore, no human being is BETTER THAN another human being due to EXTERNAL obedience to the law whether it is given to Jews on stone and vellum or given to Gentiles written on conscience. Thus Paul has provided evidence that JEWS ARE NO BETTER THAN GENTILES in Romans 2:1-27. If you cannot see this it is because you cannot read or understand simple English. So for you to say that Paul is not proving that Jews are no better than Gentiles in Romans 2 is complete nonsense! That is the very point of this chapter from beginning (vv. 1-5) until the end (vv. 17-29).

Since, the Jew is judged by the Law of God given to Moses and the Gentile is judged by the law written on his conscience and external obedience ALONE IS NO PROFIT to either Jew or Gentile under EITHER LAW then what is needed IN ADDITION to justify them under BOTH laws?? They need EXTERNAL as well as INTERNAL confirmation to the Law they are being judged by. In regard to the Jew:

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Only a LIAR (1 Jn. 1:8-10) would claim they have "FULFILLED" the Laws righteous demands both EXTERNALLY and INWARDLY. Remember the context is talking about JUSTIFICATION BY THE LAW and according to the deeds demanded by the Law which Paul clarifies and demands includes both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL confirmation to all the Law demands.

However, the person who has fulfilled all the laws demands both INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY is a person who has never sinned, who don't need a Savior or a salvation because the Law has no just basis to condemn him to sin or death. Thus what Paul has PROVEN in Romans 1:18-3:9 is declared as fact in Romans 3:10-23.

 

[Dr. Walter]

As previouslys stated Romans 3:4 merely STATES or DECLARES it. The judgement has not yet occurred and so no EVIDENCE is offered, no PROOF is provided.

Hint: at NO point does Paul say in Romans 2 "All are under sin" or "every man is going to hell" nor even "every man is a liar".

Hint: Throughout Romans 2 Paul is dealing with persons who JUDGE OTHERS and perceive themselves BETTER THAN OTHERS and Paul provides evidence they are not better than others.

RATHER in Romans 2 (as in Romans 1 ) Paul identifies BOTH the succeeding cases (good trees and good fruit as we find in Matt 7) and the failing cases.

The personal pronoun "thee" in Romans 2:4 by grammar restrictions refers to the person being described in verses 1-3 and verse 5 and I DARE YOU TO FIND A SUCCESS case in verses 1-3 and verse 5!

And Paul ends Romans 2 with this incredibly obvious Gospel point about the new birth new-creation work done by the Holy Spirit on the heart. A work that produces the good-fruit of obedience to God -

Oh, please try to find a SUCCESS CASE in verses 17-25!!! I dare you!

You obviously do not understand the developmental argument of Paul in regard to the Jew in verse 17 to verse 29.

I will put it in baby language so you can perhaps follow it. In verse 17 Paul says the Jew is BOASTING about something? Want to guess what it is He is boasting in and who it is he is boasting about it before and What profit this he imagines this boast gives them?

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;


In verses 18-20 Paul says the Jew is boasting about being SUPERIOR to non-Jews? Want to guess who they are?

19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. in Christ,

He didn't say the "educated Jew" but the person "thou art called A JEW." Hint: those they are boasting over are not Jews. Should I give you more hints? Can you pick up that this is a BETTER THAN THOU context? Keep trying and perhaps you can see that here is a whole chapter dealing with BETTER THAN THOU types who believe THE LAW gives them boasting privileges BEFORE GOD over the NON-JEW.

Now, does Paul go on to prove they are "under sin" equally as the Gentile? I will present the text and then break it down to baby language so you can grasp it:


21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

Do you see how he asks questions about keeping the ten commandments in verses 21-22 and then draws his absolute NEGATIVE conclusion in verses 23-24. I DARE YOU TO FIND A SUCCESS APPLICATION in verses 23-24!!!

Now, I know you are having a real tough time understanding the argument on circumcision in verses 25-29 and so I promise to put it into real simple words for you. There are some real simple truths that you must recognize clearly in the text and context if you are going to understand his argument in these verses.

1. He has and is speaking about the JEWISH LAW in verses 17-29.
2. He has and is speaking about KEEPING the Jewish Law in verses 17-29
3. He is not speaking about justification by grace through faith in verses 17-24 and neither is he speaking about justification by grace through faith in verses 25-29.

Now, I know you realllllllllly struggle with accepting #3 above so let me tackle that in real simple easy words you can grasp. Verse 25 is talking about KEEPING THE LAW? What Law? The law that includes the command of Circumcision? What Law includes the command of Circumcision? Is it the law of justification by faith or the law of justification by works under Moses which includes the ceremonial law of circumcision? Can you guess which one it is? Hint: The book of Galatians was primarily written against justification by the deeds of the Law which including circumcision? If you cannot figure it out yet, then I will give you one more hint. Any justification of law keeping that includes circumcision is what Paul and the council at Jerusalem condemned in Acts 15. Now, read the next verse and see if you can tell if Paul is talking about circumcision with the words "if thou keep the law" and take a guess at what law he is referring to and what it means to "keep" this law???

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

So, Paul is talking about the Jew and about keeping the Law of Moses, and specifically the law of circumcision under Moses in order to PROFIT from it OVER the uncircumcised Gentile in the day of judgment. If you doubt that, then consider the words "his uncircumcision" in verse 26 and ask yourself who are the ones who will be "uncircumcised" in the day of judgment in contrast to the one that calleth himself "a Jews"?????

Now, lets proceed. We have proven that Paul is talking about justification under the law of Moses in regard to the law of circumcision which is the "boast" of the Jew over the Gentile in the day of judgement. Let's ask what is the principle that Paul is laying down here for the Jew to be able to keep that "boast" in the day of judgement. How can he PROFIT from circumcison through that BOAST over the Gentile in the day of judgment under the law by his works???

His prinicple is very simple when it comes to justification by works UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES. Circumcision only profits this boaster IF he keeps every other law under Moses as well but if he is a "breaker" of the law of Moses then God views his circumcision in the day of judgment as uncircumcision.

Now, lets ask ourselve the question. What does the Law of Moses required to be justified by the deeds of the Law that includes the law of circumcision????? Would James 2:10 and Galatians 3:10 define what it means to "keep" the law in order to be justified by the law of Moses?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Now, if you define KEEPING the law as James defines it, does not that mean you are SINLESS without and within or does the Law only pertain to EXTERNALS? So if you break it in ONE POINT what does that make you according to James definition of keeping the Law?

Perhaps James is too hard for you to grasp. Paul deals with the law of Moses in an overall context of the law of circumcision and here is how he defines what the Law requires to KEEP it in order to be Justified by it:

Gal. 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,

CONTINUED IN NEXT POST

 

[Dr. Walter]

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;


26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

ooooops! Paul not only defines what it means to keep or do the Law but he asserts that justification by the law in the sight of God is impossible! Of course that would be the natural conclusion if doing the law is defined as SINLESS CONFIRMATION both EXTERNALLY and INTERNALLY to every point of the Law's demands. Only a "LIAR" (1 John 1:8-10) would deny they have not violated one point of the Law even if they are a saved man like John (if "WE" say).

So, there is no profit in being circumcised in order to "BOAST" over those "uncircumcised" unless you can keep ALL THE LAW in ALL OF ITS POINTS all the Time. To "come short" of that goal is to "sin" or transgess the law.

So, what you suppose each and every point of the Law, including circumcision, requires to be justified by the deeds of the Mosaic Law if to violate "one point" is to violate all points? Just reverse that principle and you will answer the question. You must keep EVERY POINT to keep ANY POINT.

Soooooooo, what does this mean in regard to circumcision? Well, what is the Divine design behind the "sign" and "seal" of circumcision? It is an outward sign of inward sinlessness or a heart characterized by true holiness and righteousness. That is what is required INSIDE to keep circumcision OUTSIDE. Can circumcision UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES obtain that goal? Paul says no in Galatians 3:11. Paul says no in Romans 3:19-20. Since circumcision is no part of Justification by faith, you are either forced to include it under justification by faith and join the ranks of those in Acts 15:2 or confess your doctrinal error because Paul is not talking about justification by faith but justification under the law by the deeds of the law which INCLUDES THE LAW OF CIRCUMCISION.

Now, a Jew under the law of Moses by the deeds of the law that includes the law of circumcision CANNOT BE PROFITED by circumcision and a born again Jew is not under the law of circumcision and so this text cannot be perverted to refer to the Jew justified by faith.

Now, how about the uncircumcised. The uncircumcised (gentile) is not under the law of Moses and does not have the law of circumcision and therefore is uncirucmised. Is he able to keep the law that he is under any better than the Jew is able to keep the law of Moses????????? Well, if so, then the same prinicple would apply to the uncircumcised Gentile as applies to the Jew. He must keep the law written on his conscience, as that is the only law given to him by God (Rom. 3:12,14) if he is going to profit from law keeping to be justified by God. He must keep that Law precisely as good as the Jew is required to keep the Law of Moses. Perfectly INSIDE as OUTSIDE and to fail in ONE POINT is to fail in ALL POINTS.

IF he can, then is uncircumcision will profit him equally as circumcision would profit the Jew who KEEPS THE LAW WITHOUT FAILING IN ONE POINT internally and externally.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Then the uncircumcised Gentile would be in a SUPERIOR position in the day of judgement to "JUDGE THEE" who is a transgressor of the law in ONE POINT:

27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

Now, notice how Paul concludes that the real Jew or the real one who is a KEEPER OF THE LAW (as this is the boast of the Jews - vv. 17-18) and this is the boasted profit of circumcison (v. 25) must be righteous INSIDE and OUTSIDE in order to be justified under law through the deeds of the law:

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Remember, he begins in verse 17 by the boasting that he is "a Jew." But Paul PROVES that no person can claim to be a real KEEPER OF THE LAW who merely keeps it EXTERNALLY.


28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

No, the law written by Moses (circumcision) or written by God upon the conscience requires more than EXTERNAL confirmation. It require EXTERNAL confirmation in EVERY POINT as well as INTERNAL confirmation in EVERY POINT to be justified under law:

29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

Now, lets see if this baby step appraoch has helped you. If you do not understand Paul's line of argument in Romans 2:17-29 you will not draw the same conclusion as the verse following Romans 2:19. However, if the verse following Romans 2:29 is your conclusion to Paul's line of argument in Romans 2:17-29 then we know you understand Paul's point is to PROVE that the Jew is not superior to the Gentile:

Rom. 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

This response demonstrates that Paul has just PROVEN in Romans 3:17-29 that the Jew has NO ADVANTAGE over the Gentile in regard to LAW KEEPING for justificaiton before God. This response demonstrates that Paul has PROVEN that there is no profit in circumcision over uncircumcision in the day of judgment according to works as both equally are "under sin" as none have KEPT THE LAW as defined by the Law.

If you cannot understand the above baby step by step explanation, then reread it three times carefully. If it is still beyond your grasp then I will be glad to take each step and break it down to prenatal jestures.

 

[BobRyan]

There is only ONE place in Romans where every man is found to be a sinner prior to 3:9 – that is in vs 3:4!

Your argument is with the text.

It is NOT in Rom 2 because there we find BOTH Jew AND Gentile receiving the reward of eternal life.


Quote:

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.


In Romans 2 Paul does NOT argue "all Jews are lost" rather he argues that every man among the Jews and the Gentiles (BOTH groups) will go to heaven if the fruits show the born-again New Covenant result of a good tree, and every man among BOTH Jews and gentiles that shows the result of bad fruit will be found to be a bad tree - and will in the end - to to hell based on an unbiased impartial law regarding the fruit of the good tree vs the bad tree.

A principle Christ himself identifies in Matt 7.

Paul says that this is IN the context of the Gospel call to repentance and the Gospel good news of the future judgment where as Daniel notes "Judgement is passed in favor of the saints".

It just does not get any easier than this!

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

ooooops! Paul not only defines what it means to keep or do the Law but he asserts that justification by the law in the sight of God is impossible!

If you are looking for that language in regard to the saints of Rom 1:1-17 you will not find it in the chapter.

If you are looking for that language in regard to the saints of Rom 2 quoted above - you will not find it in the chapter.

When Paul brings up the Rom 2:7 issue of perseverance of the saints you simply "circle back" to the Romans 3 context of the LOST seeking justification by works instead of the Rom 2:7 context of the saved saint "PERSEVERING in doing good"

Walter
Now, how about the uncircumcised. The uncircumcised (gentile) is not under the law of Moses and does not have the law of circumcision and therefore is uncirucmised. Is he able to keep the law that he is under any better than the Jew is able to keep the law of Moses????????? Well, if so, then the same prinicple would apply to the uncircumcised Gentile as applies to the Jew. He must keep the law written on his conscience, as that is the only law given to him by God (Rom. 3:12,14) if he is going to profit from law keeping to be justified by God. He must keep that Law precisely as good as the Jew is required to keep the Law of Moses. Perfectly INSIDE as OUTSIDE and to fail in ONE POINT is to fail in ALL POINTS.

As was already noted - from Heb 6:1 - we already agree with what Paul calls the simple infant-foundation principle of the lost coming to Christ, repentance from dead works - justification by faith for the lost.

But in Romans 2:7 and in Rom 2:13-16 we have the Gospel "good news" concept of the SAVED that "PERSEVERE in doing good" who are not simply the hearers but the doers of the law.

For as Paul says to the saints "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

John says this is true to the point that those who claim to know Christ yet DO NOT keep his commandment are being deceitful. 1John 2:3-7.

Impossible to miss.

After Paul points out in Romans 2 that BOTH Jew and Gentile go to heaven IF they are found to be the good trees - having the good fruit of Matt 7 that hears the word of God and DOES the word of God - Paul addresses the obvious question -- well then what advantage is there to being a Jew (in Rom 3:1) since apparently BOTH Jew and Gentile get to go to heaven under the same unbiased "no partiality with God" Rom 2:11 rule.

Paul gives the answer in Rom 3:2-3 "GREAT in every respect"

Rom. 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

This response demonstrates that Paul has just PROVEN in Romans 3:17-29 that the Jew has NO ADVANTAGE over the Gentile in regard to LAW KEEPING for justificaiton before God. This response demonstrates that Paul has PROVEN that there is no profit in circumcision over uncircumcision in the day of judgment according to works as both equally are "under sin" as none have KEPT THE LAW as defined by the Law.

INSTEAD of the Romans 2 text saying that ALL are lost - The Romans 2 text says that EVERYONE who does good showing themselves to have the New Covenant promise - is saved whether Jew or Gentile. No difference.

And everyone that shows they are NOT born again - having not the good fruit of the New Covenant "Law written on the heart" is lost - Jew or Gentile -- no difference due to family status.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

There is only ONE place in Romans prior to Rom 3:9 where "all are under sin" where "every man is found to be a sinner" – that is in vs 3:4!

Rom3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "" THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.''

Hint: at NO point does Paul say in Romans 2 "All are under sin" or "every man is going to hell" nor even "every man is a liar".

RATHER in Romans 2 (as in Romans 1 ) Paul identifies BOTH the succeeding cases (good trees and good fruit as we find in Matt 7) and the failing cases.

And Paul ends Romans 2 with this incredibly obvious Gospel point about the new birth new-creation work done by the Holy Spirit on the heart. A work that produces the good-fruit of obedience to God -

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,


Instead of "both Jews and Gentiles are all going to hell" as some have "imagined".

(rant deleted here)... Romans 2:26-29 is proving that circumcision does not make the Jew SUPERIOR to the uncircumcised Gentile UNLESS He keeps every point of the law:

24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Paul does not argue that HE or the Apostles or the many saved Jews in the Christian Church of Rom 1:1-17 are "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" because they were sinners that have become saints.

Paul IS arguing that the LOST Jews that are NOT saints do that very thing.

Then Paul in Romans 2 contrasts a LOST Jew with a SAVED Gentile.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

Walter said -

If you cannot see that Paul is presenting the Jew as those who perceive themselves as KEEPERS of the Law and therefore SUPERIOR to the Gentiles because of the Law then you can't read or understand English:

17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

If you cannot see that Paul condemns their boast in verse 24 as a false perception of keeping the law then you cannot either read or understand English:

Your non-stop ranting apparently clouds your ability to see the obvious points made so far. I keep insisting that the lost Jew is doing exactly what you are saying and that this is NOT the case of the SAVED Jew (and saved Gentile) that PERSEVERES in doing good -- in true perseverance of the saints fashion.



Regarding Romans 2

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

Walter said:

Only a LIAR (1 Jn. 1:8-10) would claim they have "FULFILLED" the Laws righteous demands both EXTERNALLY and INWARDLY. Remember the context is talking about JUSTIFICATION BY THE LAW and according to the deeds demanded by the Law which Paul clarifies and demands includes both INTERNAL and EXTERNAL confirmation to all the Law demands.

However, the person who has fulfilled all the laws demands both INTERNALLY and EXTERNALLY is a person who has never sinned

Paul is addressing the perseverance of the saints in Rom 2:7 he is not arguing for "never sinned" in Romans 2.

Paul speaks to the New Covenant promise of the New Heart - and circumcision that is done in the heart by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant approving those who have it - condemning those who do not have it.

This could not be any more obvious for the unbiased objective Bible student reading the text above.

However each time Paul addrsses the perseverance of the saints in doing good topic and the circumcision of the heart under the New Covenant by the Holy Spirit (in Romans 2 texts above) you continually "circle back" to the case of the infant-gospel perspective of how a lost person becomes saved "repentance from dead works" that Paul describes in Heb 6:1 as the following quote shows -

Walter
, who don't need a Savior or a salvation because the Law has no just basis to condemn him to sin or death. Thus what Paul has PROVEN in Romans 1:18-3:9 is declared as fact in Romans 3:10-23.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The simple and obvious point is that WHEN Paul wants to make the Romans 3 case of ALL mankind lost (as he does in Romans 3) and in need of a savior - he says " are WE better than THEY? not at all" Rom 3:9.

But BY CONTRAST when Paul wants to compare saved saints to the lost -- as he does in both Romans 1 and Romans 2 -- he shows the LOSt to be "causing the name of God to be blasphemed" as contrasted to the SAINTS who "persevere in doing good and seek for glory and honor and immortality" and who get "eternal life!!" Rom 2:7.

He contrasts those who cause the name of God to be blasphemed and are merely Jews "outwardly" with the SAINTS who are circumcised in heart by the Holy Spirit and are Jews INWARDLY.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

No wonder Paul can say to the saints of Corinth "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19

In Romans 2 Paul reproaches lost Jews for "causing the name of God to be blasphemed" urging that they STOP doing that and pointing out that saved Gentiles will go to heaven while they are remaining lost. This is not the sort of argument that is of the form "we are all the same we are all causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles".

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

So, you cannot deal with the verse by verse exposition of Romans 2;1-5 and 17-29 even when it is broken down in baby steps for you. You simply ignore the evidence and like a parrot repeat your heretical eisgetical nonsense. Fine! He that will be ignorant let him be ignorant!

There is only ONE place in Romans where every man is found to be a sinner prior to 3:9 – that is in vs 3:4!

Your argument is with the text.

It is NOT in Rom 2 because there we find BOTH Jew AND Gentile receiving the reward of eternal life.


Quote:

Rom 2
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.


9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts,

The New Birth promise of Heb 8 "The Law written on the heart" is being identified in that Romans 2 section above. Impossible to miss for the unbiased objective Bible student.


In Romans 2 Paul does NOT argue "all Jews are lost" rather he argues that every man among the Jews and the Gentiles (BOTH groups) will go to heaven if the fruits show the born-again New Covenant result of a good tree, and every man among BOTH Jews and gentiles that shows the result of bad fruit will be found to be a bad tree - and will in the end - to to hell based on an unbiased impartial law regarding the fruit of the good tree vs the bad tree.

A principle Christ himself identifies in Matt 7.

Paul says that this is IN the context of the Gospel call to repentance and the Gospel good news of the future judgment where as Daniel notes "Judgement is passed in favor of the saints".

It just does not get any easier than this!



If you are looking for that language in regard to the saints of Rom 1:1-17 you will not find it in the chapter.

If you are looking for that language in regard to the saints of Rom 2 quoted above - you will not find it in the chapter.

When Paul brings up the Rom 2:7 issue of perseverance of the saints you simply "circle back" to the Romans 3 context of the LOST seeking justification by works instead of the Rom 2:7 context of the saved saint "PERSEVERING in doing good"



As was already noted - from Heb 6:1 - we already agree with what Paul calls the simple infant-foundation principle of the lost coming to Christ, repentance from dead works - justification by faith for the lost.

But in Romans 2:7 and in Rom 2:13-16 we have the Gospel "good news" concept of the SAVED that "PERSEVERE in doing good" who are not simply the hearers but the doers of the law.

For as Paul says to the saints "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

John says this is true to the point that those who claim to know Christ yet DO NOT keep his commandment are being deceitful. 1John 2:3-7.

Impossible to miss.

After Paul points out in Romans 2 that BOTH Jew and Gentile go to heaven IF they are found to be the good trees - having the good fruit of Matt 7 that hears the word of God and DOES the word of God - Paul addresses the obvious question -- well then what advantage is there to being a Jew (in Rom 3:1) since apparently BOTH Jew and Gentile get to go to heaven under the same unbiased "no partiality with God" Rom 2:11 rule.

Paul gives the answer in Rom 3:2-3 "GREAT in every respect"



INSTEAD of the Romans 2 text saying that ALL are lost - The Romans 2 text says that EVERYONE who does good showing themselves to have the New Covenant promise - is saved whether Jew or Gentile. No difference.

And everyone that shows they are NOT born again - having not the good fruit of the New Covenant "Law written on the heart" is lost - Jew or Gentile -- no difference due to family status.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So, you cannot deal with the verse by verse exposition of Romans 2;1-5 and 17-29 even when it is broken down in baby steps for you. You simply ignore the evidence and like a parrot repeat your heretical eisgetical nonsense. Fine! He that will be ignorant let him be ignorant!

1. You did not give a verse by verse exposition of the sections of Romans 2 that totally refute your views and to the extent that you did get to Rom 2 at the end - I responded in detail.

As you already know we both agree on the Heb 6:1 infant-gospel point that the lost do not "persevere in doing what they are doing" to be saved nor do they "persevere in doing good" to be saved .

All mankind is lost - condemned by the law of God as sinners and must come to Christ by grace through faith.

WE have agreed to this point a zillion times.

Walter said
Now, lets ask ourselve the question. What does the Law of Moses required to be justified by the deeds of the Law that includes the law of circumcision????? Would James 2:10 and Galatians 3:10 define what it means to "keep" the law in order to be justified by the law of Moses?

AGreed - that is the circle back context of lost that need to be saved it is not the Rom 2:7-29 case of saved and lost being contrasted and it is not the Rom 1:1-17 case of the saved.

WE already agreed on this case-of-the-lost point about a zillion times.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Paul does not argue that HE or the Apostles or the many saved Jews in the Christian Church of Rom 1:1-17 are "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" because they were sinners that have become saints.

Paul IS arguing that the LOST Jews that are NOT saints do that very thing.

Then Paul in Romans 2 contrasts a LOST Jew with a SAVED Gentile.

Paul is presenting the very evidence in Romans 1:18-3:8 that He claims he has presented in Romans 3:9. He is describing what is true in regard to ALL MANKIND including himself and his readers when they were lost (Rom. 3:10-20). He is specifically dealing with the self-righteous man in Romans 2:1-5 and the self-righteous Jew in Romans 2:17-3:8, of which he himself once was (Philip. 3:1-7).

He is dealing specifically with justification under the law of Moses by the deeds of the law of Moses in Romans 2:12-29. If you cannot see that Paul is dealing with the profit of the law of circumcision as the grounds for boasting by the Jew over the Gentile in the day of judgement in Romans 2:25-29 then you need to learn English all over again.

You have not honestly dealt with my commentary on Romans 2:25-29 because you cannot do so with integrity and still hold to your eisgetical interpretation that Paul does a complete flip flop in verse 28-29 from justification under the law of Moses in regard to the law of circumcison to justification by faith. Paul is simply demonstrating what he first states in verse 25 what justification by works under the law of Moses in regard to circumcision demands for it to be of profit in the day of judgement and Romans 3:1 demonstrates this fact completely as does Romans 3:9.

Bob, your simply not dealing with my comments or with the text with honesty and integrity.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I keep insisting that the lost Jew is doing exactly what you are saying and that this is NOT the case of the SAVED Jew (and saved Gentile) that PERSEVERES in doing good -- in true perseverance of the saints fashion.

.....Paul speaks to the New Covenant promise of the New Heart - and circumcision that is done in the heart by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant approving those who have it - condemning those who do not have it.

Out of one side of your mouth you agree that Romans 2:17-24 is saying exactly what I say it means - the Jew is BOASTING over the Gentile, then out of the other side of your mouth you say Paul jumps ship all of a sudden in verses 25-29 and talks about the regenerate state of the gentiles justified by faith without works in contrast to the boasting Jew.

Apparently you cannot understand the obvious developmental argument about circumcision in verses 25-27 which is merely the apex or conclusion for the real point or grounds for boasting by the Jew in verses 17-24 - circumcision!

Apparently you can't see that Paul is dealing with circumcision in regard to its real profit on the day of judgement if the Jew is to be justified under the law of circumcision in verses 25-29. Apparently you cannot see that Paul is arguing that for a Jew to be justified by the law of circumcision on the day of judgement his internal condition must match his external condition and if it does not then his circumcision becomes uncircumcision and he is thus no better than the uncirucmcised Gentile.

Apparently you cannot see Paul reverses the boast of the Jew by claiming that the Gentile's uncircumcision would be regarded as circumcision if the Gentile fulfilled the SAME righteousness demanded by the Jew under the law of Moses but under the law written on the conscience of the Gentile!! Both the Law of circumcision and the law written on conscience demand the SAME righteousness INSIDE to make any deeds on the OUTSIDE valid in the day of judgement, thus making circumcision invalid altogether as a ground of boasting before God and that is exactly why Romans 3:1 says what it says!

Apparently you are incapable of understanding that Paul is simply defining what the internal condition of the Jew as well as the internal condition of the Gentile must be in order to be justified by external works whether under the law of Moses or under the law of conscience in Romans 2:28-29.

Instead you have Paul jumping ship in midstream from defining what the righteousness of the Law of Moses requires to make circumcision a valid basis for approval before God unto what makes Gentiles approved before God by another basis for justification altogether. However, that is not Paul's line of thinking. He is defining what works of the Law require regardless if written on stone or on conscience for both Jews and Gentiles and why circumcision is profitless unless that standard is met - INTERNAL righteousness. Circumcision is validated for the jew UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES BY WORKS IF he is also INTERNALLY righteous and non-circumcision does not make the Gentile inferior to the Jew under the law of conscience for justification by works IF he is also INTERNALLY rightoeus. Hence, cirumcision itself as a ground of boasting is rendered worthless as Romans 3:1 concludes.

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is only ONE place in Romans prior to Rom 3:9 where "all are under sin" where "every man is found to be a sinner" – that is in vs 3:4!

The pronoun "thee" in Romans 2:4 grammatically refers to the person described in verses 1-3 and verse 5 and I still challenge him to find where this "thee" (third person singular) is ever regarded by Paul as a SUCCESS CASE!

Bob places these verses side by side rightly demonstrating that the Jew and Gentile are being judged according to the law they have been given. The Jew has been given the law written on stone while the Gentile has been given the law written on conscience. The whole point of Romans 2:11-15 is that God will not judge Jew or Gentile by an unfair standard. For example, God will not judge the Gentile by the Law he gave to the Jews but rather by the law he wrote on their conscience. This is so obvious that it leaps out from his words:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Notice there is NO SUCCESS case in this verse.

Who are those who "sin without the law" and yet will "perish without the law"? What is the basis to judge them as sinners and condemn them to perishing if they are "without the law."???

Who are those who "sin in the law" and therefore are "judged by the law"?

In verse 13 Paul deals with the person who has been given the law that can be READ to them in their hearing and notice his approach is negative not positive. Negatively, hearers of the Law (Jews) cannot be justified by hearing it but they must also do it to be justified. Now that is the question! What does the Law require of JEWS to be "doers" of the Law? Bob wants to conclude from this language they are doers and are success cases when Paul is merely defining the basis UNDER LAW to be justified.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul challenges those Jews who think they are doers of the Law in verses 17-27 and denies they are doers of the Law according to what the law requires as DOING the Law. Bob ignores that because he has to shove into this context supposedly SUCCESS cases.

After Paul lays down the basis for the Jew to be judged under the Mosaic Law he now turns and shows how Gentiles can be judged and condemned "without the law" given to the Jews by Moses:

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Bob has to transform this whole passage from an explanation how God can judge and condemn the Gentile who "have not the Law" given to the Jews by Moses to an assertion of a SUCCESS CASE in order to make it fit his theory.
However, this is a simple explanation how God can judge Gentiles as sinners and condemn them to perishing. God has given them a "conscience" which operates by either excusing or accusing what they say and do. God writes His Moral Law upon the conscience and therefore can be used as the basis to define them as sinners and condemn them to perishing.
Paul does not give any success cases! He simply explains how the conscience operates and that is operates on a just basis and therefore is a just standard to define sin and condemn to perishing. He is not describing born again Gentiles as Bob imagines but describing the function of the conscience and why it is a just basis to define sin and condemn those who violated it to perishing. Do you know of any human being that has not violated his conscience????? This is so simple and so easy to see that it just jumps out from the page. When Bob reinterprets verses 14-15 to refer to SUCCESS CASES he has perverted Paul's intent which is simply to provide an explanation for what he said in verse 12 concerning those "without law" and why they can be defined as sinners and why they can be justly punished.

Paul does not argue that HE or the Apostles or the many saved Jews in the Christian Church of Rom 1:1-17 are "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the gentiles" because they were sinners that have become saints.

Notice how Bob introduces his accusation as though I had argued that Paul and the saved Jews are "causing the name of God to be blasphemed among the Gentiles." What a perversion of my argument! My argument is that Romans 1:18-3:23 is proving that ALL MANKIND whether Jew or Gentile comes from the conditions described in Romans 1:18-3:23. The "WHOLE WORLD" comes into the world this way and that "NO FLESH" has by passed this condition. What is said here is equally true of Paul as to every Jew and Gentile at Rome and that is precisely why they had to be justified by faith.

What Paul is saying of the Jew is true of all Jews coming into the world before they are justified by faith including Paul and every Jew at Rome. The context is demonstrating that NATURAL BORN Jew is a sinner and in need of salvation.

I keep insisting that the lost Jew is doing exactly what you are saying and that this is NOT the case of the SAVED Jew (and saved Gentile) that PERSEVERES in doing good -- in true perseverance of the saints fashion.

There are no saved Jews described in Romans 1:18-3:23 - NONE - ZILCH - NADA

I dare you to find a saved person in Romans 1:18-32? - Can't be done!

I dare you to find a saved person in Romans 2:1-5 - remember the pronoun "thee" in verse 4 by grammatical rules describes the person in verses 1-3 and in verse 5. Can't be done!

I dare you to find a saved person in Romans 2:17-27. Can't be done!

You try to find one in Romans 2:6-16 and in Romans 2:28-29. I will deal with that later.

Paul is addressing the perseverance of the saints in Rom 2:7 he is not arguing for "never sinned" in Romans 2.

Paul speaks to the New Covenant promise of the New Heart - and circumcision that is done in the heart by the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant approving those who have it - condemning those who do not have it.

This could not be any more obvious for the unbiased objective Bible student reading the text above.

Can you deny that the question posed in Romans 3:1 demands that Paul has previously proven that in some sense there is no "profit" in circumcision prior to verse 31? What sense does this question have if he has not demonstrated it has no "profit" in some sense?

Rom. 3:1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Hence, Paul is not proving in the previous verses dealing with circumcison (Rom. 2:25-29) that there is SUCCESS CASES for being "a Jew" or there is "PROFIT" for being circumcised but he is proving the very reverse. However, your argument contradicts the very purpose inferred in this question. There is no success cases in the advantage of being "a Jew" nor is there any success cases of circumcion be a profit to Jews over gentiles.

Likewise, there is no success cases of Gentiles fulfilling the law of righteousness written upon their conscience any more than any Jew fulfilling the righteousness written upon stone and vellum. The issue is not the moral law but the law of circumcision in regard to the Jew and gentile. If the jew could fulfill the whole law then there would be advantage in being a Jew. If the Jew could fulfill the whole law then there would be profit in circumcision. If the gentile could fulfill the whole law written upon conscience then he would be superior to the Jew because the Jew cannot. If the gentile could fulfill the whole law written upon conscience God would count his uncircumcised condition as circumcised simply because the law written upon his conscience does not command circumcision.

you continually "circle back" to the case of the infant-gospel perspective

The object of Paul in Romans 2 is not to prove there are success cases by perseverance versus non-success cases due to the lack of perservance by others.

The object of Paul in Romans 2 is to show that no man (vv. 1-5) has any advantage before God on the basis of works (v. 6) when God deals with their works in strict justice (vv. 7-11) as defined and justly considered by the appropriate law they are under (vv. 12-16). This is especially true of the jew who boasts of such an advantage especially in regard to circumcision.

This design is perfectly inferred in the question that follows in Romans 3:1

1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

This design is perfectly stated in the conclusion in Romans 3:9

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

This design is perfectly demanded by the universal languague and flat denial that "ANY FLESH" can be justified by the works of the Law in Romans 3:19-20

19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[The Word]

In May 2010 Chowmah starts a thread on the 10 Commandments with this comment



Since the thread is full - and closed... I add this comment here

1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

In Eph 6:1-5 we are told that the 5th commandment is the "first commandment" in that still-authorotative group of 10, that has a promise associated with it.

In James 2 we are told that if we break one of them we break all.

In John 14:15 - "if you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" -- using the pre-cross context of commandments.

John repeats this in 1John 2 saying that those who claim to know and love Christ should keep His Commandments.

in Christ,

Bob

Only the chosen ones will obey the law and commandments of God and these are Jesus and us saints. The prophets obeyed the voice of God but they had to die as sinners because their messiah hadn't been sacrificed for their sins yet.

The gospel is the voice of God, also called the spoken Word. Whoever is obeying the gospel, is obeying the law and commandments of God. Once a saint becomes sinless by the Word of God's commands, then the Word is revealed in his heart, mind and soul. The flesh becomes totally obedient to the Word instead of doing his own thing, which is sin. So basically, the flesh dies to the world so the Word can speak through it.

The Word is the law and commandments of God so after we're made sinless, we cannot disobey the commandments ever again.

Everyone else is a sinner who will be saved from their sinful flesh when they die. The penalty of sin is death so as soon as they die in the flesh, their penalty has been paid in full and their soul will remain in God.

This means that of God's created people are saved from the flesh during this age and in the next age, we'll get new immortal bodies to live forever. We'll never experience death again.