What! No Church?

[DHK]

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

I think it probably depends on the context in which the word church is used. It could mean a specific assembly or the whole of the church both on earth and in heaven.

The word means assembly.
It's derivation comes from two words "ek" and "kalew" which means "out" and "to call" or "to call out." In effect it means a called out assembly. The lexicon you are using are giving some meanings that are commonly used in a more contemporary way, however still it means assembly:

Jewish assembly,
religious assembly
Christian assembly (church)
assembly in heaven

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (KJV)

Hebrews 12:23 the universal gathering; and to the assembly of the firstborn who are registered in heaven; and to God, judge of all; and to the spirits of just men made perfect; (Darby)

There will be an assembly in heaven.

 

[Darrenss1]

ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see'-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.


I think it probably depends on the context in which the word church is used. It could mean a specific assembly or the whole of the church both on earth and in heaven.

That's exactly how I see it!!

Darren

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom

Paul did call the congregation at Ephesus the church did he not?

Yes, he did. He also called the congregation at Corinth THE body of Christ. (Ch 12)


I agree with DHK on this one.

 

[Darrenss1]

Yes, he did. He also called the congregation at Corinth THE body of Christ. (Ch 12)

Out of curiousity is the "Body of Christ" also a local gathered assembly <?>, of course this MUST mean some kind of definite membership for individuals of that same assembly. What's your take on the Body of Christ? Is there ONE Body of Christ or many??

Darren

 

[DHK]

Out of curiousity is the "Body of Christ" also a local gathered assembl <?>, of course this MUST mean some kind of definite membership for individuals of that same assembly. What's your take on the Body of Christ?

Darren

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Paul was speaking to the believers at the assembly in Corinth as the "body of Christ," as indeed they were a "body" of believers organized with Christ as their head. They were baptized into one body. The body has many members. They even argued over which member some of them were (allegorically), or what gifts they had, who was more prominent, etc. Paul explained to them that they all had different gifts. They all could not have the same gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
--One body, many members. This is speaking of the local church at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--A body has only two feet, and two hands, and both must be connected to the body. There can't be three feet and five hands, and just one kidney. The body must work in harmony. Each part must fit together to work properly. We all have our different gifts

1 Corinthians 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
--We all can't be the same thing; do the same thing.

1 Corinthians 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
--This verse testifies to the fact that it can only be a local church. We suffer when one in our own local assembly suffers, not when someone across the continent or in another country that we never heard of suffers. This verse only makes sense in the context of a local church.

"The church, the body of Christ." yes, it is a Biblical statement.
Every church ought to be a body of Christ in that Christ is the head and each member is a part of that body.

 

[DHK]

What's your take on the Body of Christ? Is there ONE Body of Christ or many??
Darren

Is Christ your Saviour? Is he my Saviour? Is He Tom's Savior? Does He dwell in you, Tom, and the others on this board?
But wait: Is Christ divided? How many Christ's are there anyway?
The same question can be asked.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, he did. He also called the congregation at Corinth THE body of Christ. (Ch 12)


I agree with DHK on this one.

Well you are entitled to be as wrong as DHK! The Church is also referred to in Scripture as both the Body and the Bride of Jesus Christ. That doesn't mean there is "no Church", the called out ones.

 

[psalms109:31]

Church

Any body can be called a church an assembly place or a place of assembly, but the only called out one's are those who have assembled in Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

DHK, your quoting of I Corinthians 12 stopped one verse too soon.

V. 27 is the one I have in mind: "Now YE are THE body of Christ...."

Paul was writing to the congregation at Corinth. He described that congregation as THE body of Christ.

That makes at least two local congregations that Paul called THE. Ephesus, which Paul said Jesus shed his blood for in Acts 20:28 is the other.

So you are right. Your church is the body, my church is the body, Darren's church is the body.

Eventually, all believers will assemble to worship the Lamb and to fellowship with him. And it will be one universal church. But not in this age.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Eventually, all believers will assemble to worship the Lamb and to fellowship with him. And it will be one universal church. But not in this age.

And it will be when we are all assembled together.

 

[annsni]

--This was written to the local assembly at Corinth which was an assembly made up of both Gentiles and Jews. Give no offense not to the Gentile, not to the Jews, nor to the believers that are in the assembly at Corinth. Be sure to take into consideration the context.

So we go from Gentiles and Jews (not just in a particular location but the entire group of people, and now we're going into just a particular church? I do not see that supported in the structure of the sentence here.

--The only assembly present at the time of Paul's conversion was "The First Baptist Church at Jerusalem." :laugh: That is the only "church" he persecuted.

Yep, that same Baptist church of Jerusalem.

Why then did he go to Damascus to find believers there? If he suspected that there were others (and there were), why did he not state in this later letter that he persecuted the church in Jerusalem?

"head over all to the assembly, which is his body," This is a good example of the word "assembly" being used in a generic sense. Gill points out that the Vulgate translates this phrase as "head over 'every church'", indicating all assemblies, as Christ is the head of every church.

But it does not state that Christ is the head of the churches but the church (singular). Did God err on this? Why use a singular noun when He meant plural if "church" means the individual assemblies? That makes no grammatical sense whatsoever.

What did the assembly at Ephesus think when Paul wrote this? It was written to them--the assembly by Christ Jesus throughout all ages."

Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).

Once again, the individual assembly is not addressed here - it would have to be a different sentence. "Unto Him be the glory in your own individual church"? I don't see that supported by the sentence.

--What assembly was Christ speaking of? The one at Ephesus? Yes he was, and he was speaking of every Bible-believing church that Ephesus was representative of.

So you're saying that "church" here refers to more than one assembly. Thank you.

Good example. How many husbands and wives are there in the world today? I suppose there are as many husbands and wives as there are churches.
Of course not. Just as the words "husbands" and "wives" are used generically, so also is "church"

So you're then saying that God is into polygamy. That He has many wives. That's not so good, is it? Yes, there are many husbands and wives but they are one flesh. There is one husband to one wife, not one husband to many wives. This absolutely solidifies that there is one "church" being referred to in this passage - the body of Christ.

 

[OldRegular]

And it will be when we are all assembled together.

It will be at the return of Jesus Christ when the Church, the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Jesus Christ, descends to the New Earth as the Apostle John describes in Revelation 21.

 

[OldRegular]

Ann

I believe that at this time there are many local Churches. I also believe that there is a body of all true believers at any time on earth which constitute The Church. Certainly this Body of all believers is not a visible Body. There are occasions in Scripture when the word applies to the local Body, there are also occasions when the word applies to the universal Body.

Many people are afraid of this concept of the universal Church because they think it smacks of Roman Catholicism. But to me that is a poor excuse for refusing to acknowledge that all true believers constitute one Body which is The Church of Jesus Christ, His Bride, Chaste and without Blemish, as the Apostle Paul states.

 

[Tom Butler]

And it will be when we are all assembled together.

Yep. And that's why when the Lord gathers all believers in heaven, it is commonly called the General Assembly.

 

[OldRegular]

Yep. And that's why when the Lord gathers all believers in heaven, it is commonly called the General Assembly.

You omitted part of the statement about the general assembly. It really states: the general assembly and church of the firstborn. An oversight I am sure. The complete description of the redeemed in heaven is as follows:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

 

[Tom Butler]

Ann

I believe that at this time there are many local Churches. I also believe that there is a body of all true believers at any time on earth which constitute The Church. Certainly this Body of all believers is not a visible Body. There are occasions in Scripture when the word applies to the local Body, there are also occasions when the word applies to the universal Body.

Many people are afraid of this concept of the universal Church because they think it smacks of Roman Catholicism. But to me that is a poor excuse for refusing to acknowledge that all true believers constitute one Body which is The Church of Jesus Christ, His Bride, Chaste and without Blemish, as the Apostle Paul states.

So, what is the purpose of the Universal Church? When does it assemble? When does it worship together? When does it have the Lord's Supper together? What missionaries has it sent, and when did it take up a collection for that purpose?

Why do some of the members of the so-called Universal Church persist in believing error? Why do they persist in dividing the Body by associating with groups which teach error? I do understand that they think I'm in error, but the point is, there is division, there is error in the Universal Church.

There will come a time when the Bride will be chaste and without blemish, because we'll all know the truth and believe it. But it's not today.

 

[HankD]

I am not convinced that there is not "THE Church".​

There are just too many references and types to point to the fact that there is a collective body of believers called "the church".​

To call these references "generic" IMO is a smoke screen to cloud that issue (although it is accurate in some places):​

We are assembled together in the heavenlies even in this life:​

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

So, if Paul is refering only to the Ephesians, throw the book of Ephesians out as it only speaks to the local church at Ephesus and not your local church. Same for 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, etc...​

That "assembly" is comprised of born again belivers:
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

With one Overseer:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.​

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.​

The gates of hell have certainly prevailed over many a local church but not the one built upon the Rock.​

1 Peter
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.​

OK, if it will result in less divisiveness then give it another scriptural name like the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, The New Jerusalem (all of these are "perhaps").​

Whenever I see this argument (because that's usually what this debate turns into), and other similar arguments, I (and probably others too timid and/or unregenerate to enter into the debate) can't help thinking of this passage:​

Acts 18
14 And when Paul was now about to open his mouth, Gallio said unto the Jews, If it were a matter of wrong or wicked lewdness, O ye Jews, reason would that I should bear with you:
15 But if it be a question of words and names, and of your law, look ye to it; for I will be no judge of such matters.
16 And he drave them from the judgment seat.​

HankD​

 

[Tom Butler]

You omitted part of the statement about the general assembly. It really states: the general assembly and church of the firstborn. An oversight I am sure. The complete description of the redeemed in heaven is as follows:

Hebrews 12:22-24
22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

It was an oversight, but I'm not quite sure of your point. Please elaborate.

 

[Tom Butler]

I repeat a question or two. What exactly is the purpose of the Universal Church? What does it do? How does it advance the kingdom?

I might point out that the things that local churches around the world are doing to reach the lost are exactly those things of which the Universal Church is doing zero.

 

[OldRegular]

So, what is the purpose of the Universal Church? When does it assemble? When does it worship together? When does it have the Lord's Supper together? What missionaries has it sent, and when did it take up a collection for that purpose?

Do you deny that there is on the earth at this time a number of believers scattered through the world.

Why do some of the members of the so-called Universal Church persist in believing error? Why do they persist in dividing the Body by associating with groups which teach error? I do understand that they think I'm in error, but the point is, there is division, there is error in the Universal Church.

There are some on this Forum who believe, teach, and promote error! There is sin, error, and undoubtedly unbelievers in ever local "assembly", as you would call it.

There will come a time when the Bride will be chaste and without blemish, because we'll all know the truth and believe it. But it's not today.

I agree; but as Jesus Christ said: Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Are you casting stones?

Now questions for you to consider. When we are told in Acts 2:47. Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

What is the Church in this statement? Does the Lord add members to your Church or are they voted in by the congregation? How do unsaved people get into the local assembly? Does the Lord add them?