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What! No Church?
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
And where do you get this false accusation.
Who said there were unbelievers in our local church. There aren't, that I know of. Our church is small. We know each other well.
Of course you have run up a dead end.
The definition of a local church: It is a local body of baptized believers that voluntarily meet together to carry out the two ordinances of Christ (baptism and the Lord's Table) and to obey the Great Commission.
By default, if any claim to be a member of a local church and is not a "believer" he is not a member of that local church, for the local church is composed only of baptized believers.
In all honesty I don't read that process practised in the NT church. Todays its like the Lord added them to the local church and then the local church added them to the membership of their local church.
A few years ago I had to take my family to another church because our church voted in a pastor that I knew would be a problem, so we tranferred to another Baptist church but our transfer was refused because the other Baptist church was not scriptural according to them. So we became members of the other Baptist church anyway until they finally removed the problem pastor. Anyway we were not permitted to transfer back either so apparently but we were members of both churches at the same time!!
Darren
Very few of our members are added through "transfer" of membership.
More than 90% are added because they have recently been saved, discipled, baptized, and want to become a part of our body of believers. That is the Scriptural way.
I agree with you that not everything is perfect in many other churches, as in the situation you described. We have never had anything like that happen in our church.
Paul was writing to the Corinthian Church when he said:
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
It speaks of the body, the body of Christ--the local church at Corinth. Each local church is a body of Christ.
I don't believe in "THE Body of Christ," that you are alluding to, that is a universal church. I would rather call it the family of God. When we are born again, we are made children of God, brothers and sisters in Christ. My family is scattered all over. My brothers and sisters don't live with me, not even in the same city. But they are still related to me by blood. All believers are related to one another by the bond we have in Christ. We are one family.
But Paul specifically calls the local church a body in Christ. It has definite members, shape, function, organization to it. It fits the definition of "assembly." It functions as a body, as one that is described in 1Cor.12.
Tom Butler
New Member
Here's my take.
1. By immersion upon a confession of repentance and faith.
2. By a transfer of membership from another Baptist church or a church of like faith and order.
3. Where a candidate for membership cannot confirm his previous membership (church disbanded, or some other reason) his statement of faith and statement of scriptural baptism.
But in the final analysis, the door to the local church is baptism, without which no one may become a member, even a new believer.
I understand that the U-Churchers believe that one becomes a member of "THE" Body of Christ (meaning Universal church) by salvation.
My frame of reference is the local church, which Paul, on at least two occasions called The Church or The Body.
Tom Butler
New Member
Can someone tell me the benefits of membership in a Universal, Invisible Church?
It can't be worship, Bible study, fellowship or communion, since it doesn't assemble.
It can't be evangelism since it has no preachers or missionaries.
It can't be helping the poor and downtrodden, since it has never given a dime for that purpose.
So what are the benefits? What function does it serve? What, if anything, does it do better than any local church?
It can't be worship, Bible study, fellowship or communion, since it doesn't assemble.
It can't be evangelism since it has no preachers or missionaries.
It can't be helping the poor and downtrodden, since it has never given a dime for that purpose.
So what are the benefits? What function does it serve? What, if anything, does it do better than any local church?
So for example the church of Ephesus was a different body of Christ to the one at Corinth??
1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
In other words Paul was saying, now your local church at Corinth as a solid enitity is a Body of Christ (one of many) and you became members by being scripturally water baptised and then the local church added you to the church role so that whilst you are a member of that same local church you qualify to be a member of that given associated local Body of Christ.
So how can Paul refer to "THE" Body of Christ if it is ONLY in the local context??
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
BTW do you take this as water baptism and only in the context as a local church?
1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Darren
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Tom Butler
New Member
Acts 20:28 Paul urges the elders at Ephesus to feed the church of God. Which one? The one Jesus purchased with his own blood. The one over which the Holy Spirit had made them overseers. Which one is that? The church at Ephesus.
And I Cor 12:27 Paul describes the congregation at Ephesus this way: "YE are THE body of Christ...."
Anyone who has a problem with individual churches being described as THE church or THE body, take it up with Paul.
And I Cor 12:27 Paul describes the congregation at Ephesus this way: "YE are THE body of Christ...."
Anyone who has a problem with individual churches being described as THE church or THE body, take it up with Paul.
Tom Butler
New Member
Oh, and I Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit we have all been baptized into the body...."?
That's water baptism, which new believers are led by the Spirit to submit to. The Greek en can also be translated in or through. In one spirit, we have been immersed....
And the body? Local church, in this context the FBC of Corinth.
That's water baptism, which new believers are led by the Spirit to submit to. The Greek en can also be translated in or through. In one spirit, we have been immersed....
And the body? Local church, in this context the FBC of Corinth.
13 For thou didst form my inward parts: Thou didst cover me in my mother`s womb.
14 I will give thanks unto thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: Wonderful are thy works; And that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My frame was not hidden from thee, When I was made in secret, And curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them. Ps 139
IMO, on the highest level of interpretation this is in reference to the Church, the body of Christ.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I can tell you the benefit. We are children of God, heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. We can be members of the local church and still be lost. It is naive to believe that everyone who is admitted to membership in a local church is a true believer.
Incidentally has anyone here seen the Holy Spirit Baptize anyone. I suppose if you are Pentecostal you might have seen someone claim they were slain in the Spirit. In all honesty I have never seen the Holy Spirit, whether He is baptizing someone or not.
One additional point. Can anyone explain why they are afraid to admit that all true believers make up the body of Jesus Christ, or if you prefer the bride of Jesus Christ, and constitute the Church Universal.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don't see how you get water baptism out of that! And I have never seen the Holy Spirit baptize anyone.
Every local church is A body of Christ. 1Cor.12 makes that abundantly clear. The body that is described there can only refer to the church at Corinth, their particular problems, divisiveness, want of certain spiritual gifts, pride, etc. But it demonstrates to us how each and every local church has the same set up. We operate as a body with many members having many functions. Not all can be the pastor; not all can be Sunday School teachers; not all can be deacons; not all can be the treasurer, etc. We all have our own abilities and are cut out for our own special service within the body that we serve.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
--Does your church have the right foundation? If it is not built on the foundation--that is, Christ, it is no church at all. He is the chief corner stone.
Go to other scriptures which say basically the same thing, and you will find that Christ is the chief cornerstone. Built upon him are the apostles and prophets. We are the building blocks which come after. The apostles and prophets laid the groundwork for us. We have them in the Word of God today. We still have evangelists, pastors and teachers. They mature the saints; they are for the work of the ministry, they edify the local assembly, the church which is the body of Christ--locally. The church at Ephesus was a local assembly.
That verse is one of the most controversial verses in the Bible, even among Baptists. Tom gave you one interpretation, which is plausible. I agree with him in that the Greek word is en or in.
It is possible that the word spirit could be with a small s., meaning in the "spirit of the church." Remember that in the book of Acts, they did everything with one accord. There was great unity among the believers. That is one thing that was stressed among the early believers. Is it possible that Paul is referring to that unity that should be there in the church?
For in one spirit we are all immersed into one body--unity. Then the verse continues more about unity--whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
If we are children of God then we are part of the family of God, also a Biblical term. We are made children of God through the new birth. See John 1:12,13
John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, (children) even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I find the term children of God but not family of God. Could you enlighten me?
If we are children of God then we are members of the Body Of Jesus Christ, we are part of the New Jerusalem, the Bride of Jesus Christ.
I believe the following Scripture is speaking of the totality of the redeemed, the New Jerusalem, the Body, the Bride of Jesus Christ!
Ephesians 2:18-22
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
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Christ is the Spirit baptizer:
Ephesians 2 which is concerned with the melding of the Jew and Gentile (and not just the Jew and the Ephesians) into one body or temple of God:
ASV Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear:he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
Personally, I don't like the phrase titles "Universal" or "Invisible" Church in that they are not found in the Scripture as applied to THE Church. Of course the phrase "local church" is not found in the Scripture either.
I like the scriptural title for what is presently called the "Universal" or "Invisible" Church:
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Ephesians 2 which is concerned with the melding of the Jew and Gentile (and not just the Jew and the Ephesians) into one body or temple of God:
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Also Peter in his general epistle concerning the Stone (Rock) which is the cornerstone of "a spiritual house" :
1 Peter 2
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
I believe the underlying problem comes from too strict and limiting a definition of "church" (ekklesia) and our disregard for it's synonyms and OT derivative allegories (oops, I mean types).
There has to be (at very least) a verbal way to differentiate between a "local" church with a potential admixture of wheat and tares and the unblemished assembly of born-agains built upon the Rock against whom the gates of hell will not prevail (I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish) as Peter does in verse 9 above.
The Church of the Firstborn works for me.
HankD
Tom Butler
New Member
You're talking about the Kingdom, composed of subjects of the King.
If a person has his name on the church roll, and is lost, this he is not a member because he has never been scripturally baptized.
Because the concept is a fantasy. And even it if existed, the Universal Church is dysfunctional, divided and is useless in carrying out the Great Commission. This entity has no purpose for existence, and the best any proponent has come up with that its purpose for existence is to exist.
Ephesians 3:14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God's children, to those who believe in his name: (WEB)