What part does Satan play?

[Crabtownboy]

In another thread Rippon made the following statement, "Can you ever get specific and tell us what you think is so evil about our understanding of the Bible? Because that's what it's about." By our statement he meant Calvinists.

In this question I am not accusing anyone of evil. What I am doing is trying to understand ....... OK?

Thread rules:
Please, do not quote favorite verses. I can read the Bible also.
Please, do not quote Calvin or other authorities. I can read Calvin and others.
Please, give me you reply in a rational, calm way.
Please, no one line insults toward others.

Now to the questions.

1. If God preordained everything that happens where does Satan come in?
2. Why was he created?
3. If all was preordained how then Satan is guilty of evil as he only does what God preordained?
4. Does Satan really do anything?
5. If God preordained evil does that not make God evil also?

I am sure that more questions will come up.

Thanks for calm, rational replies.

 

[mandym]

I do not understand your "rules". You don't want anyone to quote scripture?

 

[Crabtownboy]

I do not understand your "rules". You don't want anyone to quote scripture?

The reason being too many threads simply bog down into opposing views are reduced to quoting scripture. I want to know why people believe as they do.

At St. John's College in Annapolis at the student seminars, two each week, there are two rules that I know of:

1. Students must be polite to each other regardless of how much they disagree.

2. No authorities are to be quoted. As they say, "Yes, but we can read the authorities. We want to know what you think."

The same with their major papers each year. No footnoting, no quoting authorities ... the student must be able to back up their ideas with their own thoughts. Naturally these come from their readings ... but the have to be able to think on their own and not rely on quoting. I would like the same here.

If you cannot explain your position without quoting scripture than I tend to doubt that person has a well thought out idea of what they believe.
Same here.

 

[mandym]

The reason being too many threads simply bog down into opposing views are reduced to quoting scripture. I want to know why people believe as they do.

I don't understand. You create a discussion about a theological issue but you do not want scripture brought into the picture. I wouldn't know how to accomplish such an endeavor with anything meaningful under that guideline. And I do not understand the desire to want to do that. Very odd indeed

 

[matt wade]

I don't understand. You create a discussion about a theological issue but you do not want scripture brought into the picture. I wouldn't know how to accomplish such an endeavor with anything meaningful under that guideline. And I do not understand the desire to want to do that. Very odd indeed

Crabby has made a reasonable request and explained his reasoning. If you don't wish to participate, don't.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I don't understand. You create a discussion about a theological issue but you do not want scripture brought into the picture. I wouldn't know how to accomplish such an endeavor with anything meaningful under that guideline. And I do not understand the desire to want to do that. Very odd indeed

You mean you cannot give me a rational answer that does not conflict with scripture without quoting scripture? Yes, such an answer requires more thought and that makes it a bit difficult but I believe, that is good. We need well thought out replies. It is not that scripture is not part of the discussion, it is simply not quoted.

For instance, if you are witnessing to someone who knows nothing about scripture or does not trust scripture, then to quote scripture only weakens your influence on that person. A good rational answer, that stays within the truth of scripture will have a much greater influence on that person, IMHO.

So, let's start with one question. Why was Satan created? If God preordained all it makes no sense to create Satan and blame him as evil as he is only doing what God preordained.

 

[quantumfaith]

I don't understand. You create a discussion about a theological issue but you do not want scripture brought into the picture. I wouldn't know how to accomplish such an endeavor with anything meaningful under that guideline. And I do not understand the desire to want to do that. Very odd indeed

I think that the point might be, not to use (throw) scripture at one another in a "bumper sticker" kind of way. This knowing that we all "interpret" scripture in different manners and thus everything once again bogs down into "he said/she said" and a "gotchal" mentality.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I think that the point might be, not to use (throw) scripture at one another in a "bumper sticker" kind of way. This knowing that we all "interpret" scripture in different manners and thus everything once again bogs down into "he said/she said" and a "gotchal" mentality.

Good way to put it.

Now, I am still waiting for someone to reply on topic. To me this is one question Calvinists must have a rational answer and I do not believe it can be covered with a few proof texts. So, would someone start the discussion .... thanks.

 

[quantumfaith]

1. I think it is without question that God created Satan (Lucifer) as all would agree that God is the ultimate creative source of all that there is, other than himself of course, as He always was.

2. Why did God create Satan? He was created to be a chief subordinate officer in the heavenly realm. As to His complete role and purpose in that can only be speculation.

 

[Crabtownboy]

1. I think it is without question that God created Satan (Lucifer) as all would agree that God is the ultimate creative source of all that there is, other than himself of course, as He always was.

2. Why did God create Satan? He was created to be a chief subordinate officer in the heavenly realm. As to His complete role and purpose in that can only be speculation.

I have no problem with your reply. However, if God preordained all, why would he create a being that he preordained to rebel and be blamed for evil .... which God must have also preordained. Why did God preordain that evil be a part of our world?

 

[Cypress]

So, let's start with one question. Why was Satan created? If God preordained all it makes no sense to create Satan and blame him as evil as he is only doing what God preordained.

I for one like the threads parameters..... Just time for a quick response for now. I dont know what the nature of the angels relationship to God is. It does not seem to be really well fleshed out enough for me in scripture to discern the nuances of their interactions without being an angel. As humans we can ask questions about ourselves and be our own experiments or subjects in helping find the answers. On the surface, they seem to show many of the same motivations that we do. They posses some abilities that we don't. So, as to the why he was created, I see us with the same dilemma as usual. Determinists will say it was for a God glorifying purpose that he went awry while those that don't see creation as following a blueprint will say he simply chose his way against God's way, or that angels like humans are free to rebel. But we do know that at some point he was called perfect. All for now............

 

[HankD]

The reason being too many threads simply bog down into opposing views are reduced to quoting scripture. I want to know why people believe as they do.

At St. John's College in Annapolis at the student seminars, two each week, there are two rules that I know of:

1. Students must be polite to each other regardless of how much they disagree.

2. No authorities are to be quoted. As they say, "Yes, but we can read the authorities. We want to know what you think."

The same with their major papers each year. No footnoting, no quoting authorities ... the student must be able to back up their ideas with their own thoughts. Naturally these come from their readings ... but the have to be able to think on their own and not rely on quoting. I would like the same here.

If you cannot explain your position without quoting scripture than I tend to doubt that person has a well thought out idea of what they believe.
Same here.

If I can't quote scripture I have little or nothing to say.

HankD

 

[quantumfaith]

I have no problem with your reply. However, if God preordained all, why would he create a being that he preordained to rebel and be blamed for evil .... which God must have also preordained. Why did God preordain that evil be a part of our world?

I personally remain unconvinced that He "preordained evil", rather it is my conviction that He "preordained" the capacity for evil, all the while knowing in His omniscience the path(s) that His creation would follow. I find in this a "tension" but I do not find this to be "logical" or otherwise a contradiction.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I personally remain unconvinced that He "preordained evil", rather it is my conviction that He "preordained" the capacity for evil, all the while knowing in His omniscience the path(s) that His creation would follow. I find in this a "tension" but I do not find this to be "logical" or otherwise a contradiction.

Why would God preordain the capacity for evil? Or is this a point in favor of saying God gives free will?

Cypress, glad you approve of the thread rules. I believe many, if not most threads should have these rules. Just MHO.

 

[quantumfaith]

Why would God preordain the capacity for evil? Or is this a point in favor of saying God gives free will?

Cypress, glad you approve of the thread rules. I believe many, if not most threads should have these rules. Just MHO.

Yes, given the options of:

A. Exhaustive Determinism
B. Free Will

I go with free will being a built in component of creation. Although, I must add that I do not believe in absolute libertarian free will, as I see that as an impossibility.

 

[quantumfaith]

http://www.whypain.org/did_god_create_evil.html

 

[Crabtownboy]

http://www.whypain.org/did_god_create_evil.html

Thanks for the link. It presents hard questions and also introduces the problem of pain. That would make another good thread.

So far no replies from staunch Calvin supporters. I had hoped for a good, calm discussion from them.

 

[quantumfaith]

Thanks for the link. It presents hard questions and also introduces the problem of pain. That would make another good thread.

So far no replies from staunch Calvin supporters. I had hoped for a good, calm discussion from them.

Sorry, not meaning to derail, but theodicy is wrapped up in the question.

 

[Amy.G]

I believe it has to do with the free will of God's creation.

If God wanted His created beings to do nothing but what He preordained, He wouldn't have given Adam a choice to obey or rebel.

I believe (based on my reading of the whole of scripture) that God desires His creation to love Him of their own will. Love cannot be forced or it's not love. Love is given freely. Even as Christians we have the free will and ability to love or not. But we are only able to love because God first loved us. Love comes from God because He is love and He created us in His image.

When all of history is done and God judges everyone, He will have a family who has chosen Him and rejected Satan, to be with Him for eternity. This is true love.

 

[quantumfaith]

I believe it has to do with the free will of God's creation.

If God wanted His created beings to do nothing but what He preordained, He wouldn't have given Adam a choice to obey or rebel.

I believe (based on my reading of the whole of scripture) that God desires His creation to love Him of their own will. Love cannot be forced or it's not love. Love is given freely. Even as Christians we have the free will and ability to love or not. But we are only able to love because God first loved us. Love comes from God because He is love and He created us in His image.

When all of history is done and God judges everyone, He will have a family who has chosen Him and rejected Satan, to be with Him for eternity. This is true love.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: