Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes, by our choice, which is what separates us from the rocks which would have been made to cry out in worship had we not chosen to do so.
If we want to.
Depends on how we got there to begin with, wouldn't it?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What part does Satan play?
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
- Start date
Doesn't this beg the question that there has to be a deterministic answer, as you like to say? So you believe in determinism in the afterlife? Or will we still have LFW?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Wondered if you'd pick up the irony of that answer.
I don't believe in our glorified bodies after being exposed to God's glory in heaven we would want to rebel against God. Plus, even non-Cals believe in regeneration and glorification, both of which do affect men's nature. We just don't claim that men are born virtually hardened and thus unable to respond to God's appeal to be reconciled. Once reconciled and regenerated our beliefs are quite common.
But, I'm not one to speculate much about what scripture doesn't clearly reveal though...
This still does not provide me with an adequate answer as to the blatant inconsistency, which is: In order for true love to exist, we have to have the ability to reject it. But apparently, we won't have that ability in heaven. "How dare God not give us a God-given right of choice! It's not fair!" That's all I read on this forum, but then apparently everyone's fine with "no choice" once it benefits them (i.e., eternity in heaven). Just doesn't sit right.Wondered if you'd pick up the irony of that answer.
I don't believe in our glorified bodies after being exposed to God's glory in heaven we would want to rebel against God. Plus, even non-Cals believe in regeneration and glorification, both of which do affect men's nature. We just don't claim that men are born virtually hardened and thus unable to respond to God's appeal to be reconciled. Once reconciled and regenerated our beliefs are quite common.
But, I'm not one to speculate much about what scripture doesn't clearly reveal though...
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Reject it when it's offered, not after we have accepted it and have been changed by Him...
There is a significant difference in being effectually made to serve him and freely choosing to surrender our lives to him... Both can result in our belonging to Him and our natures being changed so as not to be tempted by evil. The difference is seen in the simple scriptural analogy of men's choosing to cry out in worship versus rocks being made to do so.
I see, so he only changes us into robots once we've chosen to be a robot. So by definition, we won't truly love God in heaven since we will have abandoned our LFW.
No we don't become robots. When we receive Christ as our Savior, we give ourselves to Him completely and freely. Paul uses the word "bondslave". A bondslave chose to remain (for life) a slave to his master even though he had been set free.
Exodus 21:2-6 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Rom 1:1 PAUL, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
A bondslave or bondservant became that way willingly and forever.
Not argue but debate and as an answer to the question, No, just the opposite, in all probability we can't understand, at least not for now.
We're on the same page.
HankD
Excellent and scriptural answer Amy!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:applause: Very well stated young lady!
I guess Andy and Luke can't differentiate between one who is effectually changed so as to be made to submit to God for ever and ever and one who freely chooses to submit to God and thus is changed for ever and ever. I don't see why that appears to be so "blatantly inconsistent" to them.
quantumfaith
Active Member
For love to be true love, it must not be "forced" it must garner a "choice" etc. So for love to be true love in heaven, we must have the ability to choose otherwise, else it's not love.
Why would our LFW go away in heaven? Otherwise, we are the robots you claim Calvinism teaches.
I still don't get it.
I still don't understand based on your view, how we don't become robots in heaven. Will people be able to rebel in heaven? Why or why not? And if they can't rebel, how is that fair for God to not let us have our God-given right to LFW? It would not be true love if God changes us to the point where we can't rebel, right? So basically God is "forcing" (ala Matt Wade's argument) us in heaven to never rebel. How mean of God.
convicted1
Guest
What role does Satan play?
Well......lemme take a stab at this!!
Whenever a child gets molested, guess who originated that thought to start with?
Whenever a person is robbed, raped, murdered, mutilated, beaten, stabbed, slashed, all these start and end with Satan.
Now, ultimately, the fault lies in the laps of those who actually perform the aforementioned acts. But, Satan placed the thought in their minds, and they chose to following his prodding.
Sin was never found until Satan came along. I can not find anywhere where God placed evil in Lucifer, and then Lucifer did what he did. It states that inquity was found in thee(Lucifer)....and God sure did not place it there!!
Eze. 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
So, Satan is the starting point of any evil that is ever performed by sinful mankind!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Well......lemme take a stab at this!!
Whenever a child gets molested, guess who originated that thought to start with?
Whenever a person is robbed, raped, murdered, mutilated, beaten, stabbed, slashed, all these start and end with Satan.
Now, ultimately, the fault lies in the laps of those who actually perform the aforementioned acts. But, Satan placed the thought in their minds, and they chose to following his prodding.
Sin was never found until Satan came along. I can not find anywhere where God placed evil in Lucifer, and then Lucifer did what he did. It states that inquity was found in thee(Lucifer)....and God sure did not place it there!!
Eze. 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
So, Satan is the starting point of any evil that is ever performed by sinful mankind!!
i am I AM's!!
Willis
Because our love for God is already in us before we get to heaven. God has put His Spirit in us before we get to heaven. We have a love relationship with God before we get to heaven.
On this earth we still live in sinful flesh with all it's desires that war against our spirit which has been made alive and desires to please God. But when we put off this corruptible flesh and put on the incorruptible, all the sinful desires will go gone. There will be no more desire to rebel.
So we won't have free will in heaven, since we won't be able to do otherwise. So what is so important down here on earth, LFW - that which makes us human (per the non-Cal argument) - will be gone in heaven. Ergo, we will be robots (again, per the non-Cal typical argument). Or as another one likes to say - God will force us to have perfect desires in heaven. So a significant part of our humanness will be gone in heaven.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
We could do otherwise if we wanted to but because evil will be eradicated and temptation gone we wont want to. Sound familiar to how calvinists answer questions about mans fallen will being unable to respond in faith to the gospel? The difference is that while on earth we know both good and evil, we have the influence of both evil and the revelation of God, so we can respond to both.
Like I said before, our views are not completely disconnected. BUt there is a huge difference between one freely choosing to give themselves to follow, obey and love God which leads to a change of nature and removal of temptation and what you believe...which is equivalent to making the rocks to cry out.