What purpose does election and predestination serve?

No, God would not be God if He ever had to learn. Here are some verses of scripture that says He has perfect knowledge.

Job 37:16. "Do you know about the layers of the thick clouds, The wonders of one perfect in knowledge,

1 John 3:20. in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things.

John 21:17. He *said to him the third time, "Simon, {son} of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep.

Psalms 139

Hebrews 4:13. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

Isa. 44:7-8, 25-28 7. 'Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place.
8. 'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced {it} to you and declared {it?} And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any {other} Rock? I know of none.' " 25. Causing the omens of boasters to fail, Making fools out of diviners, Causing wise men to draw back And turning their knowledge into foolishness,
26. Confirming the word of His servant And performing the purpose of His messengers. {It is I} who says of Jerusalem, 'She shall be inhabited!' And of the cities of Judah, 'They shall be built.' And I will raise up her ruins {again.}
27. "{It is I} who says to the depth of the sea, 'Be dried up!' And I will make your rivers dry.
28. "{It is I} who says of Cyrus, '{He is} My shepherd! And he will perform all My desire.' And he declares of Jerusalem, 'She will be built,' And of the temple, 'Your foundation will be laid.' "

You are the first person I've ever had challenge me on God's omniscience. If God is not omniscient... He is not God.

 

Actually God knows that in our natural state that we seek to kill Him, and are His enemy. John 8

The Arminians are the ones who seem to deny God's omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence.

 

Among the other things that have been pointed out to you about God's omniscience, God is not bound by time as we are. God is also omnipresent in all time. There was never a "time" that God was not omniscient. Beyond that, God is immutable... meaning He does not change. For God to have had to learn would mean that He would be changing in knowledge.

 

I don't think I'm an Arminian so this isn't intended to defend there position.

What I don't understand here is that some Reformers here have claimed that God's Sovereignty means that no one thinks of or, even does a thing that wasn't first planned by God. This is not Sovereignty according to modern definitions. I believe it's original meaning is "superus" or simply "superior" The word Sovereign or Sovereignty do not appear in my Bible but the Bible does use the term "The most high God" (Gen 14:18), I do not Argue that God is with out a doubt superior to everything.
Ultimately God can be Sovereign and not necessarily in control every single thing to remain so. Sovereignty in other words has nothing to do with control, but "Authority". The Control of everything as I have searched is not found in scripture at all. Please would you show scriptural proof of the total control of everything by God with scripture? Because Sovereignty has nothing to do with authority.

I believe there will come a time when God will rule the planet but at present, It seems that Satan is in charge while God is away, (if indeed He can be).
Omnipotence is authority like Sovereignty and not necessarily control.
MB

 

Open theist would say that God is away also. I hope you are not open theist. Read up on it and let us know.

Open theist would also deny that God is in control of His creation.

You are entitled to your opinion, and would not be by yourself on the bb, but I hope you will read up on it a little.

You might even try to convince Job that God is not in control....

God is omnipotent (Mark 14:36; Luke 1:37). God is able to do whatever he wills in the way in which he wills it. God does not choose to do anything contrary to his nature of wisdom and holy love. God cannot deny himself, and God does not choose to do everything by his own immediate agency without intermediate angelic and human agents. Although God determines some things to come to pass unconditionally (Isa. 14:24-27), most events in history are planned conditionally, through the obedience of people or their permitted disobedience to divine precepts (II Chr. 7:14; Luke 7:30; Rom. 1:24). In any case, God's eternal purposes for history are not frustrated, but fulfilled in the way he chose to accomplish them (Eph. 1:11).

A biblical theist not only believes that the one, living God is separate from the world, as against pantheism and panentheism, but also that God is continuously active throughout the world providentially, in contrast to deism. God is not so exalted that he cannot know, love, or relate to natural law in the world of everyday experience. A study of divine providence as taught in Scripture shows that God sustains, guides, and governs all that he created. The nature psalms reflect upon God's activity in relation to every aspect of the earth, the atmosphere, vegetation, and animal (e.g., Ps. 104). God also preserves and governs human history, judging corrupt societies and blessing the just and the unjust with temporal benefits like the sunshine, rain, food and drink. Through God's universal providential activity the cosmos holds together and his wise purposes of common grace are achieved.
Elwell's Evangelical Dictionary

 

choice

You have a choice to believe what you want to.

When you say all does not mean all I feel like eve in the garden.

The Devil main goal is to get us to doubt God's word to get a foot hold in or lives. That is what he did with eve.

The devil doesn't want the world to know the hope they have in Jesus.

I know that Paul teaching is hard to understand, that it will lead men to thier own destruction.

Paul teaching was never meant to destroy the hope that God through Jesus has brought to the world.

I have not come to condemn any one, but to spread the hope this world has through Jesus.

Jesus sent us out with good news and a better hope, that we draw near to God through Jesus Christ.

I hear people to continue to show how hopeless we are and I agree. We need to be reminded

But who can save us from this body of death praise be to Jesus.

I am not judging you but showing what my most inner most being is saying to me. To stand firm, because the world needs to know that God loves them and gave them a hope through Jesus Christ.

 

You're not bound by His foreknowledge. You make it happen. Since we don't know what God knows we have to live as if all thee decisions are ours. God can intervene at any time but at all times He knows everything that will happen.

 

reformbeliever,

Take a deep breath -- count to 10 -- and then think.

All those scriptures speak of God NOW -- in the frame of Alpha and Omega -- since creation. The scenario I presented considers before Lucifer when God alone existed. Can you fathom such a time?? Would God have known everything before He even conceived everything??

skypair

 

True. But WE are bound in time which means we had beginning and end -- which means there was a time when God didn't/couldn't know us.

This, of course, is the "classic" Calvinist crutch -- that because God's CHARACTER never changes, God cannot "change His mind," cannot change His form (becoming a human infant and that infant grow up), etc. Do you not see how "tissue thin" that reasoning is??

skypair

 

First, let's get rid of the "open theist" SMEAR campaign and smart-aleck remarks. I do not find that tone in MB's queries of you.

 

J.D.,

I meant to get into this a little more with you but didn't. What God foresees will happen, it's true. But He foresees things beyond His will to predetermine -- other words, He does NOT choose them to happen. As reformbeliever is trying to describe, they happen "permissively."

Yet, when the total of time was foreseen (including the instances where He interjected Himself into the affairs of men through angels, believers, Christ, floods, etc.), then God ordained the whole thing to take place.

The error that Calvinism gets into is in making God determine what will happen so that His foreknowledge IS His predestination/predetermination of events. Ergo, your thinking in terms of it being a paradox. It's not a paradox IF the 2 -- foreknowledge and predestination -- are entirely different things.

skypair

 

So God didn't foresee everything until AFTER creation, at which time He ordained it to be as it was foreseen? In other words, God's own creation didn't conform to His will until after it did what it wanted to do including those things APART from His will, at which point God said, "Ok, so it did that stuff I didn't want it to do. Hey, nobody's perfect. I'm willing to accept it that way. I'm easy."

 

As to the question: What purpose does election and predestination serve?

It serves to ensure the salvation of the elect, who would not be saved otherwise.

Or, the simpler answer: It Glorifies God.

 

Hi JD;

Would you show proof of the underlined statement?
MB

 

It seems I have hurt some feelings with my remarks about open theism. That was not my intention. I appologize to MB and Skypair.

When "speaking" in this medium, it is impossible to read facial expressions, hear voice inflection etc. Sometimes a person may come across as sounding mean or as was mentioned earlier.... "having a tone of voice".

After reading my posts I can see where I may have "sounded" or had a "tone" that I do not want to appear to have. My appology is sincere. I pray that both of you will fogive me.

What I was saying about open theism is that they seem to have the same kind of views you seem to be giving. I'm not calling you an open theist, and may even be misunderstanding what you are saying. Again, my appologies.