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What Really makes a denomination or organization truly Christian?
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
I was raised actively Catholic (I have French and Irish in me that likes to fight with my Scots-Irish and Northern English half) and became a Baptist during my college years. My wife was culturally Catholic (Italian and Polish) and became a Baptist during her teenage years. We both consider the Catholic Church to be a body of mostly lost people, and a false Church to be evangelized. If someone is Saved in the Catholic Church is it DESPITE the teachings rather than BECAUSE of the teachings.
I was baptized, confirmed and had "first communion" in Catholic Church as a boy. We were taught that "Baptism" (pouring water on us) made us sinless, AND washed away original sin. We were told that after the baptism we were clean and that we needed to not sin to stay clean. If we did sin we were told to go to confession and then were given good works to do to make up for our bad deeds. This is salvation by man, not by God and is false.
We prayed to Mary to intercede on our behalf and others behalf. We dipped our fingers in holy water at the beginning of each service for a blessing. We bowed to statues in the building out of reverence. We called men our Father rather than God. We stood and sat for an outward show of holiness while our hearts were rotten with filth. We praised our Fathers (Priests) who, despite clear teachings in Paul's epistles to Timothy otherwise, stayed unmarried. We prayed for the intercession of saints for the souls of those who died. We were taught purgatory was where your sin debt was paid and that the Pope has the ability to speak inerrantly direct from God.
In college I read the Bible myself, clearly saw countless instances (some listed above) where the Catholic Church was not following God. And abruptly broke off from it to the point that I even refused to go to "mass" with my dying grandfather because the lies therein are an offense to my Lord.
The entire Catholic Church is a lie, and it's the worst kind of lie. It takes bits and pieces of Truth and combines them with paganism and made-up doctrine Ex-Cathedra from Ol Pope-y himself in the Vatican. And I am not some denominational purist. I fellowship with, and have attended Churches all over the Baptist spectrum and Protestant spectrum. I've worshipped with Methodists, Lutherans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Mennonites, and Pentecostals and they are my brethren. The Catholic Church is not.
Would be very Odd that Apostle Paul thanked God did not water baptise many if it was essential to the rebirth!
Steaver asked me on another thread to share my journey into the Catholic Church and leaving the Baptist church. Here it is:
I was asked on another thread if I would be willing to share why I am becoming Catholic with people on this board.
I was brought up in a Baptist family, came to Christ (repented of my sins and trusted Christ as my Savior and Lord) at the age of eleven and was taught that if something is Catholic it has to be wrong.
Liturgy is definately part of Catholic worship and so it was to be rejected as ritualistic and repetitive praying. As an evangelical I thought the symbolism and ritual of Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheran or any high church as devoid of meaning, empty, rote, and mindless. Of course there have been cases or even tendencies at times for people to lose track of the meanings of their religious practices, and to do them without thinking about why they do them– but Baptists do this too– sometimes even with their prayers, devotions, church-going, etc. To say that all symbolic ritual in the Catholic church is rote and thoughtless ritualism is as uncharitable as someone saying that evangelicalism is legalistic unthoughtful literalism which practices bibliolatry with no concern for making a concrete difference in this world. But I digress!
I began a bible study in my church of the book of Hebrews and I saw just how important liturgy was for the covenant and that became increasingly evident to me as I studied the book of Hebrews. Also I found that overwhelming historical evidence exists proving it was important to the Early Church. I came to believe that liturgy represents the way God fathered his covenant people and He renewed that on a regular basis. It became evident to me as to what the relationship of the Old Testament was to the New and how the New Testament Church became a fulfillment and not an abandonment of the Old. These ideas were confirmed by the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Reading the ECF's, I began to believe that the Catholic Church might most accurately reflect the intentions of the Early Church Fathers and found other evangelicals seeking a church whose roots run deeper than the Reformation. However, I had always believed that people only leave the Catholic Church for 'True Christianity' and not the other way around. But, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life’s 2007 Religious Landscape Survey, roughly 8 percent of Catholics were raised in other churches as evangelicals. This compares with 9 percent of evangelical Christians who were raised Catholic. Not much difference.
As I continued to study I became aware that the one only place where Jesus used the word 'covenant' was when He instituted 'The Lord's Supper'. Yet, we only observed communion four times a year.
I began to study the Gospel of John and became aware that the Gospel was chock full of sacramental imagery. I was raised to believe that liturgy and sacraments were to be rejected and certainly not to be studied. These things I was programed not to be open to. But going through Hebrews I noticed the writer made me see that liturgy and sacraments were an essential part of God's family life. Then in John six, I came to realize that Jesus could not have been talking metaphorically when He taught us to eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Jews in His audience would not have been outraged and scandalized by a mere symbol. Besides, if the Jews had merely misunderstood Jesus to be speaking literally and He meant His words to be taken figuratively, why would he not simply clarify them? But He never did! Nor did any other Christian for over a thousand years!
All this and the fact that my Aunt, a Baptist missionary, had announced to her family that she was becoming a Catholic and this started me looking deeper into a Church I had long considered heretical and even the Great Whore of Babylon (I had read David Hunt's book). Then I began to read some of the writings of the recent popes. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been highly regarded in the evangelical community. Their writings are very focused on the person of Jesus Christ and very attentive to scripture. That was certainly important to us evangelicals.
Of course there were the questions about supposed 'Mary worship' (Catholics place Mary and the saints above Christ and Catholics bow to idols, don't they?) and I was taught in my Baptist church that Catholics believe Purgatory is place where people are given a 'Second Chance' at salvation. Of course, I knew that was un-biblical. And wasn't Catholicism a 'works-rigteousness' based religion? The list went on and on so I began to read and see for myself what the Catholics had to say to my objections to their 'un-biblical' doctrines. My first book was 'Born Fundamentalist, Born-Again Catholic' by David Currie. This answered most of the nagging questions I had had as to whether or not the Catholic Church was biblical or not. I then read 'Crossing The Tiber: Evangelicals Discover The Ancient Faith' by Steve Ray, a former Baptist. Then came books by other evangelical converts such as Scott Hahn and books by Karl Keating.
There are many other reasons why I and other former evangelicals convert to Catholicism. One reason is: Certainty
To have certainty and knowledge of truth leads many evangelicals to look elsewhere beyond all the doctrinal differences and “choose-your-own-church syndrome” within evangelical churches. I had the desire for certain knowledge, this is something I could not find within evangelical churches. If I were to ask ten evangelicals what their churches teach about marriage and divorce, how many different answers might I get?
Another reason for conversion is that I wanted to be connected to the ENTIRE history of the Christian Church and not just from the Reformation forward. I do not buy into Baptist successionism as their is a lack of historical evidence for it. Baptists trying to connect themselves to various groups that split from Catholicism prior to the Reformation falls short. Their beliefs and practices were closer to Catholicism than present day Baptists. The Waldenses are an example. (Cont.)
I was asked on another thread if I would be willing to share why I am becoming Catholic with people on this board.
I was brought up in a Baptist family, came to Christ (repented of my sins and trusted Christ as my Savior and Lord) at the age of eleven and was taught that if something is Catholic it has to be wrong.
Liturgy is definately part of Catholic worship and so it was to be rejected as ritualistic and repetitive praying. As an evangelical I thought the symbolism and ritual of Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheran or any high church as devoid of meaning, empty, rote, and mindless. Of course there have been cases or even tendencies at times for people to lose track of the meanings of their religious practices, and to do them without thinking about why they do them– but Baptists do this too– sometimes even with their prayers, devotions, church-going, etc. To say that all symbolic ritual in the Catholic church is rote and thoughtless ritualism is as uncharitable as someone saying that evangelicalism is legalistic unthoughtful literalism which practices bibliolatry with no concern for making a concrete difference in this world. But I digress!
I began a bible study in my church of the book of Hebrews and I saw just how important liturgy was for the covenant and that became increasingly evident to me as I studied the book of Hebrews. Also I found that overwhelming historical evidence exists proving it was important to the Early Church. I came to believe that liturgy represents the way God fathered his covenant people and He renewed that on a regular basis. It became evident to me as to what the relationship of the Old Testament was to the New and how the New Testament Church became a fulfillment and not an abandonment of the Old. These ideas were confirmed by the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Reading the ECF's, I began to believe that the Catholic Church might most accurately reflect the intentions of the Early Church Fathers and found other evangelicals seeking a church whose roots run deeper than the Reformation. However, I had always believed that people only leave the Catholic Church for 'True Christianity' and not the other way around. But, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life’s 2007 Religious Landscape Survey, roughly 8 percent of Catholics were raised in other churches as evangelicals. This compares with 9 percent of evangelical Christians who were raised Catholic. Not much difference.
As I continued to study I became aware that the one only place where Jesus used the word 'covenant' was when He instituted 'The Lord's Supper'. Yet, we only observed communion four times a year.
I began to study the Gospel of John and became aware that the Gospel was chock full of sacramental imagery. I was raised to believe that liturgy and sacraments were to be rejected and certainly not to be studied. These things I was programed not to be open to. But going through Hebrews I noticed the writer made me see that liturgy and sacraments were an essential part of God's family life. Then in John six, I came to realize that Jesus could not have been talking metaphorically when He taught us to eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Jews in His audience would not have been outraged and scandalized by a mere symbol. Besides, if the Jews had merely misunderstood Jesus to be speaking literally and He meant His words to be taken figuratively, why would he not simply clarify them? But He never did! Nor did any other Christian for over a thousand years!
All this and the fact that my Aunt, a Baptist missionary, had announced to her family that she was becoming a Catholic and this started me looking deeper into a Church I had long considered heretical and even the Great Whore of Babylon (I had read David Hunt's book). Then I began to read some of the writings of the recent popes. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been highly regarded in the evangelical community. Their writings are very focused on the person of Jesus Christ and very attentive to scripture. That was certainly important to us evangelicals.
Of course there were the questions about supposed 'Mary worship' (Catholics place Mary and the saints above Christ and Catholics bow to idols, don't they?) and I was taught in my Baptist church that Catholics believe Purgatory is place where people are given a 'Second Chance' at salvation. Of course, I knew that was un-biblical. And wasn't Catholicism a 'works-rigteousness' based religion? The list went on and on so I began to read and see for myself what the Catholics had to say to my objections to their 'un-biblical' doctrines. My first book was 'Born Fundamentalist, Born-Again Catholic' by David Currie. This answered most of the nagging questions I had had as to whether or not the Catholic Church was biblical or not. I then read 'Crossing The Tiber: Evangelicals Discover The Ancient Faith' by Steve Ray, a former Baptist. Then came books by other evangelical converts such as Scott Hahn and books by Karl Keating.
There are many other reasons why I and other former evangelicals convert to Catholicism. One reason is: Certainty
To have certainty and knowledge of truth leads many evangelicals to look elsewhere beyond all the doctrinal differences and “choose-your-own-church syndrome” within evangelical churches. I had the desire for certain knowledge, this is something I could not find within evangelical churches. If I were to ask ten evangelicals what their churches teach about marriage and divorce, how many different answers might I get?
Another reason for conversion is that I wanted to be connected to the ENTIRE history of the Christian Church and not just from the Reformation forward. I do not buy into Baptist successionism as their is a lack of historical evidence for it. Baptists trying to connect themselves to various groups that split from Catholicism prior to the Reformation falls short. Their beliefs and practices were closer to Catholicism than present day Baptists. The Waldenses are an example. (Cont.)
(cont.)
Also, I have issue with the "interpretive diversity” that occurs in evangelicalism, I prefer to accept the authority of the Catholic Church instead of trying to sort through the numerous interpretations of evangelical pastors and theologians. The authority that is found in the Catholic Church’s Magisterium has been consistant for two thousand years. The non-ending threads on the BB pitting Christian against Christian over doctrine many times resulting in either board members directly or indirectly questioning each others salvation and the myriad of denominations created because of such squabbling is evidence enough of the dangers of 'interpretive diversity' or 'individual interpretation' of scripture.
Also, I have issue with the "interpretive diversity” that occurs in evangelicalism, I prefer to accept the authority of the Catholic Church instead of trying to sort through the numerous interpretations of evangelical pastors and theologians. The authority that is found in the Catholic Church’s Magisterium has been consistant for two thousand years. The non-ending threads on the BB pitting Christian against Christian over doctrine many times resulting in either board members directly or indirectly questioning each others salvation and the myriad of denominations created because of such squabbling is evidence enough of the dangers of 'interpretive diversity' or 'individual interpretation' of scripture.
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Why bow out? I appreciate you sharing your journey. Like I said in my open, I have been conversing with my Catholic online friend for over a year and almost daily on these subjects. One of the things that disturbs me the most with him is he is convinced that even though he believes in Jesus Christ, if he were to die this very moment he feels it is possible he would not be saved. He says he is pretty sure, he calls it "confident assurance", but he says he cannot be 100% certain, only God knows.
One thing jumped out at me with your post.....
What knowledge did you feel you were missing? Did you not know for certain if you would be saved? For anything else besides knowing you are saved is simply liberties to be found in Christ. If anything else than faith in Christ determines one's salvation, then Christ was crucified in vain and God could have simply stuck with rituals, but He didn't, He taught us that the rituals of the past were all to point us to the relationship that would be found in Jesus Christ (Hebrews covers all of this nicely). So I ask, what was the certain knowledge you desired? Was you not sure you would be saved?
Blessings!
You don't know anything about me. IF you knew me you'd know that my family has been Catholic since at least 1600 when we founded Quebec, despite in-marryings of Ulster Presbyterians and Northern English Baptists along the way. Our records don't go beyond 1600, but I can bet you we were Catholic all the way back to Charlemagne and Rome. So I was raised Catholic with the backing on centuries of Catholic teachings.
On top of that, I was catechized via months and months of time spent with both of the fathers who led the Catholic Church I attended. I was the #1 student in the Catechism class and can quote to you verbatim the Apostles creed, or Hail Mary or how to pray the rosary. I was taught directly by the fathers and by the paid on-staff Church members. I attended Catholic youth group for YEARS to reinforce the catechism.
So don't tell me I wasn't properly catechized. Either YOUR churches' fathers AND paid staff don't have a clue about their own catechism and taught it incorrectly OR I'm right. You can pick one of those two options.
I find your testimony intriguing. What did you read in the scriptures that made a red flag go off for you? Was you even looking for a red flag? Are Catholics encouraged to read the scriptures alone? The Catholic friend I speak of always reverts back to "the Catholic Church cannot be wrong". He is convinced that the RCC councils are the sole authority over "interpreting/determining/applying" what has been written in the scriptures. How was you able to break free from this? Do you think the Holy Spirit enlightened you? Just curious...
The smallest truly Christian organization….
If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matthew 18:19-20
If two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. - Matthew 18:19-20
I wasn't looking for anything other than wanting to talk to my Papa one last time. God used that to draw me to the Bible which then pointed me to Him. I've condensed the whole situation below if you want to read it:
One of my grandfathers had alzheimers and couldn't remember me, even though we were extremely close, which was heart rending for me. I had prayed to God while in my 1st year of college that my grandpa would remember me at Christmas and that I could have 1 last conversation with him. I had this weird feeling afterwards that I was certain I would get to speak to him one last time, but that would be it and he would die.
Sure enough we met him in a little run down coffee shop and he asked me about my college computer courses and such, which was practically impossible for him to remember that with alzheimers. I remember my parents looking at me weird and asking why I was weeping on the way back home. I never talked to my grandpa again. Sure enough he was admitted to the hospital the day we left his town, and he died the following week on January 6th.
After that whole situation I read the Bible to learn about the God who gave me that last conversation with my Papa. I took notes while I read the Bible. These are notes from 2013. Some are before I was "Saved" and others are shortly after. You can see I already didn't consider myself a Catholic anymore by the time I wrote these notes.
"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." - Matthew 23:9
What do Catholics call their Priests?
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;" 1 Tim 3:2 (Bishops (Priests) must be the Husband of one wife or they're not following God)
Does Catholic leadership allow their Priests to marry?
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Tim 2:5
Does this say the Priest is to mediate between you and God in Confession?
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ephesians 2:8-9
Jesus Christ died for your Sins and it is through His power you are saved. If you have to do penance to "make up" for your sins then that puts Salvation in your hands, and not God's Sovereign hands.
"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions,
as the heathen do: for they think that they
shall be heard for their much speaking" Matthew 6:7
How do you pray the rosary? Is that repetition?
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book” Rev 22:18-19
Pope Ex Cathedra - adding to canon
"And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" Matthew 19:24
Look at the gold adorned chairs the Pope has at his disposal at the Vatican. How is that not rich?
I kept reading the Bible after that situation. And eventually was Saved. I had no idea what had happened to me except I felt a huge weight gone and I knew I was not who I was 10 seconds ago. I was "churchless" after that for a year as I tried to figure out what in the world happened to me. Eventually I realized other people had the same experience and called it "Salvation" and decided the beliefs I read in the Bible matched up best with Baptists.
For me it was never discouraged, but neither was it encouraged. I was encouraged to do the rosary to draw closer to God, to do nightly prayers, etc, but not to read the Bible by myself without a Priest interpreting it for me.
I have no doubt He enlightened me. Without that I would've never even looked for Him. For me the actual breaking point came down to this 1 question "Do I believe the Bible or do I believe the Catholic Catechism". Until a Catholic reaches this question they likely won't leave. After I read the New Testament in as unbiased of a way as I could I realized these two options were mutually exclusive. I had to pick which one I was going to believe. The other Ex-Catholics I've talked to have said the similar things where you realize it's a sort-of One-or-the-other kind of decision. My wife had a similar decision to make when she was saved in an after-school teen Bibles study at her friend's house.
Seeing the Gospel suppressed in the Catholic Church and then seeing Baptists, Mennonites, Presbyterians, Amish, Pentecostals, etc actually spreading it has built my belief that these denominations are all my Brothers. We may have doctrinal differences, but we all believe the same solid Gospel foundation. I do not believe the Catholic Church has the same foundation.
Your testimony is fascinating! Thanks for sharing. I believe the Holy Spirit has to intervene. I don't think I can say all Catholics have not been born of God, for I believe a person can be born of God and yet never taught sound Christian doctrine. I believe it does come down to making a choice between scripture and any organizational teaching, no matter who it is. All doctrines must be clearly found in the scriptures WITHOUT any organizations "interpretations". Scripture interprets itself with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within each believer. Yes, I know that can lead to some doctrinal differences, but I believe the foundation, Jesus Christ, is the answer. The RCC places itself as the foundation, because it places itself as the only Church Jesus Christ founded and the only authority over Christ and the scriptures.
I hear this quite a bit from Catholics, however, Catholics also have many debates over subjects that are not directly related to one's salvation and have not been settled by the RCC's Magisterium. I had a Catholic tell me, "No need to worry about mysteries or unrevealed answers that aren’t provided to any of us definitively as doctrine. Many mysteries are open to different interpretations but only if the Church says so. They’re simply not necessary for our salvation anyway."
This is why I asked you what knowledge did you feel you were missing? Was it on salvation or on mysteries not necessary for salvation?
From what I have learned over the past 30 years is that "interpretive diversity" among evangelism falls mainly in the not necessary for salvation category.
On the salvation category for Evangelicals, the diversity lands basically with two choices, Faith alone in Jesus Christ and Faith in Jesus Christ plus good Works. From my conversations with Catholics, they mostly embrace the Faith in Jesus Christ plus good Works, but give quite a list of exceptions in order to allow sincere religious folks from all religions, or even atheist, to be saved.
So when you actually study salvation in Catholicism verses salvation in Evangelism, you will find "interpretive diversity" massive in Catholicism and actually very narrow in Evangelism.
Blessings!
The Theology of Rome is always in flux, as there was no real catholic Church until papacy, and there have been dogmas and doctrines added on by the pope over time, and to Rome, pretty much only sinners without any hope are former catholics who converted to the real Jesus!
Actually, this statement is misleading.
The doctrine of Faith Alone includes good works. Good works and true faith in Jesus Christ are inseparable (Eph 2:10, James 2). The difference between the two views is really a nuanced approach to applying terminology. Faith Alone camp will say the good works justifies the "said faith" and only the true faith is what justifies the believer. The Faith plus Works camp will say the works justifies the believer along with the true faith of the believer. Both camps will point to James 2. However, either way you look at it, both camps agree that faith and good works are the signs of a true believer. So really they agree.
The true diversity in interpretation is on Once saved Always Saved, for or against, which will often spill into a good works verses faith alone debate.
This is a favorite saying among Catholic apologist, "There are 40,000 Protestant denominations (they call all non-Catholics Protestant) with 40,000 different interpretations of scripture". Of course this is a lie and they will struggle to give an example of even two different interpretative ways to be saved that are taught by "Protestants". On the other hand, ask a Catholic how many ways the RCC gives for a person to be saved. And you think the RCC teaching is simplistic and easy to follow?
Blessings!
Those who hold to a Catholic take on this issue though do mingle Graced and works, so that they are saved by cooperating with God to save them, as have to get "spiritual enough: to allow God to merit them to now receive salvation in final state!
This is true. Although the Catholic list of works is very long and includes their sacraments. Biblical good works fall under "Love thy neighbor as thyself".
Blessings!
Catholics saved by sacramentalism, and thus they gave no real security, as do not know if will do enough to merit eternal life in the end!
37818
Well-Known Member
That is a work under the Law. Leviticus 19:18. [Galatians 2:21]