If anyone wonders why a Catholic has no idea if they will ultimately be saved, just read what they have to live with each and every day.....Understanding Mortal Sin
Blessings!
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What Really makes a denomination or organization truly Christian?
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
If anyone wonders why a Catholic has no idea if they will ultimately be saved, just read what they have to live with each and every day.....Understanding Mortal Sin
Blessings!
Martin Luther own testimony is sufficient, as a monk, would pray and confess his sins for hours, and on way back down stairs, remember more sins , and then had to crawl back up to confess again!
The last straw for Luther was when he went to Rome, and saw Indulgences being sold right out in front of the vatican, people asked to pay gold and silver to pay loved ones into heaven, saying was"louder the jingle, shorter time in Purgatory"
This statement is from the Catholic website I referenced. Do they not see the contradictions they make in their statements?
"In fact, it is specifically by walking the path of a moral life that we accept the free gift of salvation and everlasting life."
So one "accepts" the "free gift" by earning it with a path of good moral actions. Talk about a confused .theology.
No, one accepts a free gift "freely", tis why it is called "free". Is free really that hard to understand?
"In fact, it is specifically by walking the path of a moral life that we accept the free gift of salvation and everlasting life."
So one "accepts" the "free gift" by earning it with a path of good moral actions. Talk about a confused .theology.
No, one accepts a free gift "freely", tis why it is called "free". Is free really that hard to understand?
Centrist
Active Member
Steaver, by what you said even the LDS & Jehovah's Witnesses would qualify. I for one won't say they aren't, I really do believe that is they accept Jesus as the Son of God, and the only way to heaven is through Him, and confess they are sinners, and take upon them the label "Christian", then by all means they are.
In my opinion, of course.
In my opinion, of course.
It goes to how these groups define who Jesus Christ is.
Centrist
Active Member
Annnnd....who sets these standards? Come on, we've argued this before.
The Scriptures. One needs to look at how a given group defines the terms. We may use the same vocabulary but in reality, do we use the same dictionary.
Centrist
Active Member
Ok, I won't argue with that. But I would appreciate some of those scriptures to read since I may not be correct....
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Shouldn’t you have asked for the dictionary? The Scriptures were not the difference cited, nor was the vocabulary.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
IMO "the dictionary" does no good, since the problem is complicated with the fact that different groups all read and understand the words on the page differently, and have their "pet passages" and teachings that they have decided are central to their beliefs.
In other words,
Denominations all teach sets of doctrines that are derived on their private understandings of the Bible, as a group...
That means that they all have different "dictionaries".
So, if one wants to know what Catholics believe and teach, read their "catechisms" and "statements of faith".
Same for "Lutherans", "Wesleyans", "Reformed", "Bible Missionaries", "Apostolics", "Churches of Christ" and so forth.
With "Baptists" it's even more complicated, as they are either "Wesleyan / Arminian", "Calvinistic" or a mixture of the two;
In that, some teach "F.A.C.T.S". which include loss of salvation ( full co-operation with God in salvation ), some teach "eternal security" and elements of "F.A.C.T.S." ( partial cooperation with God ), and some teach "T.U.L.I.P." ( no cooperation with God ).
In other words,
Denominations all teach sets of doctrines that are derived on their private understandings of the Bible, as a group...
That means that they all have different "dictionaries".
So, if one wants to know what Catholics believe and teach, read their "catechisms" and "statements of faith".
Same for "Lutherans", "Wesleyans", "Reformed", "Bible Missionaries", "Apostolics", "Churches of Christ" and so forth.
With "Baptists" it's even more complicated, as they are either "Wesleyan / Arminian", "Calvinistic" or a mixture of the two;
In that, some teach "F.A.C.T.S". which include loss of salvation ( full co-operation with God in salvation ), some teach "eternal security" and elements of "F.A.C.T.S." ( partial cooperation with God ), and some teach "T.U.L.I.P." ( no cooperation with God ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
@steaver :
You asked, "What really makes a denomination or organization truly Christian?"
That, my friend, has been the subject of much debate and discussion for longer than you and I, put together, have been alive... and multiplied many times over.
To me, the real problem is not one of confusing doctrines, but one of "Who really has the Holy Spirit?"
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."(Romans 8:9).
The Scriptures have many things to say about how the Spirit of God manifests themselves to and through God's people,
and here are a few of those references:
Romans 8:1-26.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
1 John 2:20-27.
Sweeping all of the doctrines aside, one can either get confused trying to sort them out, or read the Bible for one's self and then review what the differing groups are all teaching, and decide whether or not they are of God.
I can tell you which one(s) are the closest, in my opinion, and I can even tell you what that one ideal group will teach and preach...
Again, in my opinion.
But one thing that I cannot do is to make that decision for you.
"Who decides who is the true church?"
In reality, the Lord does.
If that's not enough of an answer, then I can tell you this, for sure...
It's not the group that is guilty of ( or who promotes or tolerates ) the most ungodly behavior ( like murder, adultery, fornication, speaking evil of men, covetousness, etc ), loves this world and its ways, or tries to get you to give them your money ( through covetousness make merchandise of you, 2 Peter 2:1-3 )...and it is not the group that preaches and teaches works ( Ephesians 2:9 ), of any kind, as the reason that God saves anyone.
" Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Look for the fruits of the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), my friend, rather than the works of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ) and you will find the people who are truly His.
You asked, "What really makes a denomination or organization truly Christian?"
That, my friend, has been the subject of much debate and discussion for longer than you and I, put together, have been alive... and multiplied many times over.
To me, the real problem is not one of confusing doctrines, but one of "Who really has the Holy Spirit?"
" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."(Romans 8:9).
The Scriptures have many things to say about how the Spirit of God manifests themselves to and through God's people,
and here are a few of those references:
Romans 8:1-26.
1 Corinthians 2:6-16.
1 John 2:20-27.
Sweeping all of the doctrines aside, one can either get confused trying to sort them out, or read the Bible for one's self and then review what the differing groups are all teaching, and decide whether or not they are of God.
I can tell you which one(s) are the closest, in my opinion, and I can even tell you what that one ideal group will teach and preach...
Again, in my opinion.
But one thing that I cannot do is to make that decision for you.
"Who decides who is the true church?"
In reality, the Lord does.
If that's not enough of an answer, then I can tell you this, for sure...
It's not the group that is guilty of ( or who promotes or tolerates ) the most ungodly behavior ( like murder, adultery, fornication, speaking evil of men, covetousness, etc ), loves this world and its ways, or tries to get you to give them your money ( through covetousness make merchandise of you, 2 Peter 2:1-3 )...and it is not the group that preaches and teaches works ( Ephesians 2:9 ), of any kind, as the reason that God saves anyone.
" Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them."
Look for the fruits of the Holy Spirit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ), my friend, rather than the works of the flesh ( Galatians 5:19-21 ) and you will find the people who are truly His.
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I believe a person can display fruits of the Spirit and still be lost. A person must also believe God's testament of Jesus Christ and confess Jesus Christ is the Son of God as explained according to the Scripture that Jesus is One of the Triune Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Those who believe Jesus is a god, or only a Prophet of God, or is not eternal, are lost, having not the Spirit, even if they do wonderful works in the name of Jesus. (Matt 7)
Blessings!
As a matter of TRUST in God, you wouldn't require assurance of salvation. God is "THE ASSURANCE".
Salvation is not the highest priority, GOD is. Love God and Love Neighbor is most important.
If the Goal is FAITH and a perfect trust of God and one still needs a safety net concerning one's own salvation, I got GOOD NEWS for them......one can do a lot better.
Someone who has perfect trust in God would be absolutely fearless. Their attitude would be no different here then in heaven. They would be satisfied with God right now today.
LOVING God is the highest treasure there is. Loving God does not earn me salvation, loving God has not even earned me 5$.
The most important thing. I say Love God and Neighbor. Someone else stands up and says.....WELL thats not going to earn you spiritual disneyland. And its like they SOLD OUT God for "HEAVEN". Its like woosh.....over their head.
Our "heaven" isn't tomorrow. Jesus Christ is alive NOW. Where is the satisfaction with God?
Is it until we see pearly gates and with an angel masseuse.....oh hey maybe God isn't so bad after all.....
What exactly is a higher reward than loving God?
