Use your own definition, I don't care.
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What Rice Doctrines Do You differ With ?
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
Surely you grant me the right to defend a family member?
Tom Butler
New Member
John R. Rice and I are 180 degrees apart on the Doctrines of Grace. But shoot, I'm 180 degrees apart on that question with my pastor, most of my own congregation, and most Southern Baptists and a huge number of IFBs. While I'm willing to dicuss and even debate Calvinism with my pastor or any of my fellow church members, I could never bring myself to call them liars or ignorant. I could never do that to the very people who have loved me, wept with me in the midst of tragedy, rejoiced with men when I rejoiced, and who have demonstrated an intense desire to see lost people saved.
This vilification of JRR is over the line.
This vilification of JRR is over the line.
So how can I be a hyper-Calvinist ? I believe in evangelism . I believe in prayer . I pray for the lost , relatives , friends and strangers who have crossed my path . I believe it is the dudy of all to believe and repent -- to turn to the Lord . I don't try to pre-select people to tell the Law/Gospel to . These things and many more I hold to . The men such as Hoeksema , Boettner , Warfield , Barnard and Barnhouse held the same . They should not be given that hyper-Calvinistc designation . It is a sin to do so . Don't perpetuate the same old erors . I have asked before -- do you distance yourself from anything JRR said in his book , or not ? If you do , get specific .
I don't grant rights, I only ask; and of course I understand your defense of your grandfather. But I see no need to get into what Boettner was or wasn't in order to defend your grandfather. How would your grandfather have replied to a criticism like this?Originally posted by John of Japan:
Surely you grant me the right to defend a family member?
Anyone with a right understanding of Elective Grace is not 'preselecting' people to tell the Law/Gospel to.
I don't know how anyone can take the words of Christ to preach repentance and remission in his name and make decisions of 'pre-selection'.
Brother Dallas, a non-hyper...Baptist, but I am only on my third cup of coffee, so just wait...
I don't know how anyone can take the words of Christ to preach repentance and remission in his name and make decisions of 'pre-selection'.
Brother Dallas, a non-hyper...Baptist, but I am only on my third cup of coffee, so just wait...
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Kentucky?
Didn't you used to be in Arkansas? Did you move and I missed it?
Joseph Botwinick
Didn't you used to be in Arkansas? Did you move and I missed it?
Joseph Botwinick
Tom Butler,
Amen and Amen.
Rippon,
Again, please write posts that deal with the issues alone or at least deal graciously with a dear departed saint and as many of us believe, a great man of God.
I have strong theological convictions and will debate the issues with great intensity, as you may note. But even in dealing with unbelievers and those who hate the Bible and our faith, I have found that if you are polite, they are more likely to hear what you have to say. Rudeness and personal attack will certainly turn off the ones you are speaking about and often times the very ones you want to speak to.
FWIW.
Ray
Amen and Amen.
Rippon,
Again, please write posts that deal with the issues alone or at least deal graciously with a dear departed saint and as many of us believe, a great man of God.
I have strong theological convictions and will debate the issues with great intensity, as you may note. But even in dealing with unbelievers and those who hate the Bible and our faith, I have found that if you are polite, they are more likely to hear what you have to say. Rudeness and personal attack will certainly turn off the ones you are speaking about and often times the very ones you want to speak to.
FWIW.
Ray
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Cold...believe it or not. This is wierd even for Arkansas weather. I really regret that we could not get together for lunch when you were here. If you are ever back in town, please let me know. I would really like to meet you.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
I don't grant rights, I only ask; and of course I understand your defense of your grandfather. But I see no need to get into what Boettner was or wasn't in order to defend your grandfather. How would your grandfather have replied to a criticism like this? </font>[/QUOTE]John R. Rice had a quiet dignity that never answered personal attacks, however deeply they hurt. I have tried to follow that example, and have not answered Rippon's personal attacks on me both in this thread, where one has been edited, and in the previous thread on the same subject by Rippon, where they were not edited.Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
Surely you grant me the right to defend a family member?
John R. Rice did not personally attack Boettner by callling him a hyper-Calvinist. He attacked his doctrine, and there is a huge difference. He did not call Boettner a liar (as Rippon has called Rice repeatedly), he did not attack Boettner's Christian life, his character, his family life or anything else personal. He felt Boettner and his ilk were doing harm to the cause of evangelism by their doctrine, so he attacked that.
I have taken time to carefully quote what John R. Rice said in his book IN CONTEXT, which Rippon did not do, so that anyone could personally verify the facts, agree with or disagree with Rice if they wished to do so.
Our last day there was Feb. 28th. I think the temp. was about 85. We have had snow, sleet, freezing rain and finally today saw 60 degrees. I have been about to freeze to death.
Lord willing I may be able to get out that way for some conferences. If so, I will get in touch with you and we can try to arrange a meeting over lunch or coffee or something.
We miss Ark. but Kelly's dad fighting cancer all summer and still having complications, my grandfather having open heart surgery, cancer removed and recently diagnosed with alzheimer's we decided to move back here to try and help out some.
The area around Paron was isolated but we really loved it and the people we met in the community and those who worshipped with us were great to us.
I did leave the Missionary Baptists for the Primitive Baptists since our moving. But that was a move that was at least six years in the coming and not really related to the church I pastored there, except that in my change I felt I could no longer lead them, because of the differences.
PM me sometime.
Bro. Dallas
Lord willing I may be able to get out that way for some conferences. If so, I will get in touch with you and we can try to arrange a meeting over lunch or coffee or something.
We miss Ark. but Kelly's dad fighting cancer all summer and still having complications, my grandfather having open heart surgery, cancer removed and recently diagnosed with alzheimer's we decided to move back here to try and help out some.
The area around Paron was isolated but we really loved it and the people we met in the community and those who worshipped with us were great to us.
I did leave the Missionary Baptists for the Primitive Baptists since our moving. But that was a move that was at least six years in the coming and not really related to the church I pastored there, except that in my change I felt I could no longer lead them, because of the differences.
PM me sometime.
Bro. Dallas
John of J.
While a student at TTU, I stayed in the home of one of JRR's daughters for one evening. We were at MTSU for a Debate tournament. We were very graciously treated by your family, Aunt, Great Aunt or whatever. Would have been about 1975 or 76.
Always had the highest respect for Dr John and Dr Bill. They were men of the highest caliber and the highest spiritual class, they were class acts, both of them.
While a student at TTU, I stayed in the home of one of JRR's daughters for one evening. We were at MTSU for a Debate tournament. We were very graciously treated by your family, Aunt, Great Aunt or whatever. Would have been about 1975 or 76.
Always had the highest respect for Dr John and Dr Bill. They were men of the highest caliber and the highest spiritual class, they were class acts, both of them.
That would have been one of two sets of uncles and aunts, either Dr. and Mrs. Roger Martin (Ph. D. from BJU, still a prof at Temple Baptist Seminary, though almost blind), or Rev. and Mrs. Don Sandberg. Both couples are still in Chattanooga attending Grace Baptist Church (which supports us, naturally!), and both are class acts who I admire very much!
Thank you for the kind words about the family. John R. Rice's ministry and writings stand on their own, as many comments on the BB have proven.
I feel no need or desire to defend against attacks on his doctrine, only on his person and on misrepresentations of his stands. Anyone and everyone is free to disagree, and I myself disagree with Grandad on Dispensationalism (he didn't believe in it).
JJ,
No, did not stay with them in Chattanooga, but in Murfreesboro, so it was not Martin or Sanford. Seems like it was about 5-10 miles or so from town, and not toward the BR Ranch. It was out in the country a little bit, at least it was then. Not like Murfreesboro now.
Had Dr. Martin for a couple of classes. He influenced me a lot, in good ways. Did not really know Don S. very well. Know that Joy Rice Martin used to do a lot of cards, poems, etc.
Where did you go to school?
Tiny,
I think I still have just about everyone of his books! And boxes of the Sword of the Lord as well (somewhere), when he was still editing it )before it got a little bit mean spirited)!
No, did not stay with them in Chattanooga, but in Murfreesboro, so it was not Martin or Sanford. Seems like it was about 5-10 miles or so from town, and not toward the BR Ranch. It was out in the country a little bit, at least it was then. Not like Murfreesboro now.
Had Dr. Martin for a couple of classes. He influenced me a lot, in good ways. Did not really know Don S. very well. Know that Joy Rice Martin used to do a lot of cards, poems, etc.
Where did you go to school?
Tiny,
I think I still have just about everyone of his books! And boxes of the Sword of the Lord as well (somewhere), when he was still editing it )before it got a little bit mean spirited)!
Wow, sorry I missed that--being Murfreesboro, it would have been with my parents, Rev. and Mrs. Charles Himes, who were the only of the daughters and sons-in-law to live in Murfreesboro. They lived, on a house on the Rice property about a mile out of town--does that sound right? Dad was working at the Sword with Grandad and heading up the Franklin Road Baptist Church Bible Institute.
I am a 1976 grad of Temple, then I took a semester at the seminary before going to work for my grandfather as an assistant editor for a year before coming to Japan. I then took another semester on our first furlough, etc., etc.
Himes sounds right. Seems like I remember pine boards (really pretty) in some of the inside of the house. Pretty sure we stayed on the east side of I24. Wow. Small world. I am an 80 grad, squeezed 4 years and 40-48 hours a week working into a 6 year degree. I did one year at TBS, too.
For example , I have before me the book by Dr. Boettner , The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination . This book is greatly valued by hyper-Calvinists . ( page 13 )
... Note that Dr. Boettner , with other hyper-Calvinists , states that " there are really only three systems which claim to set forth a way of salvation through Christ . " He says , " Only two are held by Christians , that is , Calvin's position and Arminius' position .
Does not this show that Dr. Boettner , with other radical hyper-Calvinists , is either totally unaware of the vast mass ofevangelical literature on this subject and the position of most orthodox Christians in the world , or that he is so biased that he plays down the facts and omits them in this case ? That is the viewpoint of a narrow-minded , warped sectarian . ( 15,16 )
... Note that Dr. Boettner , with other hyper-Calvinists , states that " there are really only three systems which claim to set forth a way of salvation through Christ . " He says , " Only two are held by Christians , that is , Calvin's position and Arminius' position .
Does not this show that Dr. Boettner , with other radical hyper-Calvinists , is either totally unaware of the vast mass ofevangelical literature on this subject and the position of most orthodox Christians in the world , or that he is so biased that he plays down the facts and omits them in this case ? That is the viewpoint of a narrow-minded , warped sectarian . ( 15,16 )