What School Would Liberal Baptists Support?

[Dr. Bob]

I know even the most liberal Baptist on the BB looks like a "moderate" compared to Lutherans and Catholics, but for sake of clarity we have three sub-sets of Baptists:<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Fundamentalists<LI>Evangelicals<LI>Liberals[/list]In other threads we have spoken about good fundamentalist schools, and some that would be more evangelical or new evangelical.

But what about those on the "moderate" or "liberal" end of the spectrum? What schools do YOU support or encourage your men to attend if they want a Bible education?

Thanks.

 

[TomVols]

If they really want a Bible education, why go to a liberal school?

 

[Deitrich B]

Dr Griffin:
We encourage our men & WOMEN to attend the school that the Lord leads them to attend. It just so happens that they usually go to Richmond, McAfee, or Truett although some are going to Beeson at Samford. Most students are realizing that the SBC Seminaries are no more than indoctrination centers. I imagine that in ten years anyone with a degree from an SBC Seminary will be looked at in the same way as a Pastor who went to Bob Jones or Liberty etc. They can Pastor IFB Churches but I doubt they will have a place in the mainstream, they will ultimately be looked upon as zealots or freaks etc. Its a shame actually.
DB

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deitrich B:
Most students are realizing that the SBC Seminaries are no more than indoctrination centers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do they not realize that these other places are indoctrination centers as well?? They just do it with different doctrine.

It seems to me, furthermore, that liberal Baptists are not as "mainstream" as you seem to think they are. They seem in fact to be a minority among Baptists.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Deitrich B]

Hey Larry
Checked out the most recent Barna studies? I would say your confused...
DB

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Deitrich B ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Deitrich B:
Hey Larry
Checked out the most recent Barna studies? I would say your confused...
DB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

About what?

 

[Prosecutor]

Mercer University (McAfee) is Baptist in name only. The founder of the school Jesse Mercer would be embarrassed by the liberal non-Christian views taught at Mercer. I graduated from Mercer's Law School. If the Lord called one of my children to be a lawyer, I would not hesitate to send him to Mercer for Law School. However, if one is called to the ministry, I certainly would not send him to Mercer, but I am not a liberal Baptist(an oxymoron). I am an independent, fundamental Baptist.

 

[Deitrich B]

Hey Prosecutor,

What Liberal views are they teaching at Mercer? Are you talking about undergrad or the Divinity School?

You saying you wouldn't hesitate to send your child to the Law School sounds like an attempt to defend the "status" of your degree.

Did you ever attend any of the classes at McAfee? Naah didnt think so. I hope you prepare yourself for court better than your critique of you alma mater for the citizens of Byrons sake.
DB

 

[Prosecutor]

Deitrich B,

Why are you so defensive about Mercer (McAfee) being a liberal Divinity School? I thought that is why liberals went there. I have never taken a course at McAfee, but I have seen the liberals it produces. On this board, you will find one of its products, C. Joshua Villines, a liberal. How would you characterize Mercer (McAfee)? Why are you so mean spirited about my opinion of Mercer? You need to be more open minded.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Prosecutor ]

 

[Deitrich B]

Prosecutor
I will grant you that McAfee is left of the 6 SBC Seminaries. They (McAfee) though are far from liberal. Of course I guess a lot of that is how you define liberal. You described yourself as an IFB. I would think they are left of your beliefs on most issues but probably right in line with others.
As for the liberals they produce. Have you not met the liberal attorneys from George or Cumberland? Did they all come out staunchly Conservative? I would hope that in a learning environment students are encouraged to think. When that happens they come out of all stripes. The thinking has been taken away from the students who now attend the six SBC schools.

P Larry,
Reread your earlier post (sigh...again)
DB

 

[Pastor Larry]

DB, I know what my post said. I am asking (sigh ... again) what you think I am confused about: indoctrination or the mainstream nature of liberal Baptists.

For clarification, I do not believe that fundamental Baptists are in the mainstream. However, it seems to me, that fundamental Baptists probably have about the same percentage of the "Baptist" camp as do the liberal. The mainstream Baptists would be the evangelical Baptists. That would be my observation based on what I know and have read.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Bob,

To stick with your original question, BTSR (Richmond), McAfee, Truett, Wake Forest, Duke, and Emory are the names that I hear the most often.

As has already been mentioned, I am an alumnus of the McAfee School of Theology; and Mercer continues it's century-old commitment to baptist life with that seminary. It is a school deeply committed to personal faith, spiritual formation, service within the community, and responsible scholarship.

I doubt that anyone on the IFB side of the fence will ever understand this, but we liberals are not God-hating atheists. We are committed, Bible-believing Christians who have different views on biblical interpretation (views that are generally in alignment with, or slightly to the right of, mainstream Christianity).

Joshua

 

[Rev. Joshua]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
DB, I know what my post said. I am asking (sigh ... again) what you think I am confused about: indoctrination or the mainstream nature of liberal Baptists.

For clarification, I do not believe that fundamental Baptists are in the mainstream. However, it seems to me, that fundamental Baptists probably have about the same percentage of the "Baptist" camp as do the liberal. The mainstream Baptists would be the evangelical Baptists. That would be my observation based on what I know and have read.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, I think he makes a good point about the Barna research. Even the SBC leadership is admitting that, at best, slightly more than 50% of the people who consider themselves "Southern Baptists" (a term I'm still mad that they stole from us) do not agree with what Mohler and his ilk consider "orthodox" theology. Of course, in a bottom up denomination, that should mean that it's not really orthodox theology, but the fundamentalists are in power so they get to do whatever they like.

Joshua

 

[TomVols]

Joshua wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Even the SBC leadership is admitting that, at best, slightly more than 50% of the people who consider themselves "Southern Baptists" (a term I'm still mad that they stole from us) do not agree with what Mohler and his ilk consider "orthodox" theology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you cite proof of this assertion please? I have never heard anything of the sort. In fact, given the overwhelming support among rank and file SBs of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, it would seem the facts contradict you.

 

[TomVols]

Dietrich,
Let me ask you to play by your own rules. Have YOU ever taken a course from one of our six seminaries in the last couple of years? Or are you simply basing your adhominem straw man arguments only on propoganda and presupposition? And please, don't be so condescending and patroinizing. You could learn much from people like Joshua and rlvaughn who, though might share your political-theological views, differ from you in that they are quite gracious in their demeanor and conduct.

 

[Rev. Joshua]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
Could you cite proof of this assertion please? I have never heard anything of the sort. In fact, given the overwhelming support among rank and file SBs of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, it would seem the facts contradict you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tom,

I was thinking, in particular, of Tim Ellsworth's article "Baptists Adrift in Doctrinal Confusion" in the October 2001 SBC Life.

Here are some quotes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>SBC Life Article

...Of the Baptists surveyed, 57 percent believed works play a part in salvation, and 45 percent believed Jesus was not sinless. Only 34 percent of Baptists thought Satan was a real being, while 51 percent believed Christians have the responsibility to witness to others. Sixty-six percent of Baptists considered the Bible to be totally accurate, 81 percent considered their religious faith to be important and 85 percent believed God is the all-powerful creator of the universe.

The Barna study didn't break down the Baptist category into specific denominations like Southern Baptists or General Baptists, so the results may not be typical of Southern Baptists as a whole.

"What we've found is that when you interview people about what kind of Baptist church they attend, a large proportion of them either don't know or they will give you information that's inaccurate," Barna told the Florida Baptist Witness. "So, we typically don't break that out."

But even if the results would be even marginally better for Southern Baptists, they're still disappointing, said Phil Roberts, president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

"This should not be too surprising," Roberts said. "We have 16 million members [in the Southern Baptist Convention] and I think it's a fair estimate that less than half actually attend church on Sunday. It's pretty hard to believe that Christ was not sinless and call yourself a Christian."...

...The study determined that evangelicals are scarce. Barna defines "evangelicals" as a subset of "born again" believers — those who say their faith is very important in their lives, believe they have a responsibility to witness to non-Christians, acknowledge the existence of Satan, contend that eternal salvation is possible only through God's grace and not good deeds, believe that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth, and describe God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today.

Those who fit in such a category include only 8 percent of adults.

Fourteen percent of Baptists qualified as evangelicals, compared to 33 percent from Assemblies of God churches, 29 percent from nondenominational churches and 27 percent from Pentecostal churches. Only 1 percent of Catholics and 1 percent of Episcopalians could be classified as evangelicals.

"The most disappointing finding of the report is the loss of doctrinal clarity among evangelicals," Mohler told the Witness. "We have come to expect doctrinal compromise in the liberal denominations, but we now see the same process at work among those who call themselves evangelicals. The Barna report helpfully defines evangelicals by beliefs — not by denominational membership, etc. For too many 'evangelicals,' all that remains is emotional fervor and religious participation — not the living faith founded upon the truth of the Gospel."

Roberts said one solution to such biblical illiteracy lies in pastors' diligence in preaching truth and in their willingness to go house to house, if necessary, to inquire about each person's spiritual condition.

"The church needs to take seriously its shepherding role," he said.

Mohler added that all Baptists should be alarmed at what the study reveals.

"The Barna report is a warning of what is to come, if these trends are not reversed," Mohler said
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joshua

[ December 01, 2001: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]

 

[Rev. Joshua]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TomVols:
In fact, given the overwhelming support among rank and file SBs of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message, it would seem the facts contradict you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As to the 2kBF&M, it's is only supported overwhelmingly by those who bother to still attend SBC meetings and by those state conventions under the thumb of the fundamentalists. The Georgia Baptist Convention, for instance, isn't even a blip on the radar for many larger, "moderate" churches here.

Joshua

 

[rhoneycutt]

Joshua,
They (GBC) met here in Macon a few weeks ago. I dont know of anyone who attended that wasn't Church staff. I remember a few years ago we all went for the fellowship and worship. My gut is that they have squeezed the laity out of leadership therefore they have ceased to be involved. Perhaps though the laypeople are just apathetic towards the convention. Do you have any thoughts on this? I heard someone say (can't remember who) that we have entered a post denominational era, thoughts?
I need to agree with DB about Mercer, I didnt go there but parents,sister and many friends did. One of my dearest friends and golfing buddies works for Dr. Godsey, I know many of the Professors through Church, civic activities etc. from what I can tell its a very very good "mainstream" school.
Of course my definition of what is mainstream is probably different than Prosecutors.
Peace
Russell

 

[Dr. Bob]

Other than a couple of names of the schools, I am woefully unfamiliar with most. Remember my work with SBC was a FBC Dallas (Criswell College, International Institute, Calvary College, Dallas Seminary) - ALL of which are on the fundamentalist side.

They always spoke of our "beloved Baylor", like speaking about a departed loved one, for in the 80's the conservatives were still fighting tooth and nail to get some historic Baptist doctrine taught there. It was pretty much just "christian" in name like many other universities.

THANK YOU ALL for your input. I will continue to monitor the thread in case others want to share schools they support.

And do we have any middle-to-left NORTHERN Baptists? Where do YOU send your kids . . .?

 

[Rev. Joshua]

Bob,

Other than Duke and Emory, the CBF-partner schools were created in response to the takeover of the 6 Southern Baptist seminaries. I don't think any of them are older than 10 years, and they are primarily populated with former faculty from the SBC seminaries (primarily Southern).

BTSR in Richmond is the oldest of the shools, and it was founded with major support from the Alliance of Baptists. McAfee is part of Mercer and is in Atlanta. Truett is part of Baylor, and Wake is (unsurprisingly) at Wake Forrest in North Carolina.

Non-fundamentalists talk about Southern Seminary the same way you mentioned that fundamentalists talk about Baylor. They say, "I went to Southern before the fall" or "back when it was still a seminary." They look particularly sad when they talk about the library.

Joshua