What Should A Christians Profession be Judged On ?

[Van]

Nothing wrong with a Pastor exhorting others to "get busy" working for the Lord. And there is nothing wrong with a Pastor exhorting others to strive to follow Christ on the inside rather than the outside, like whitewashed coffins.

Several secular commentators have noted that the church that suffered the mass shooting exhibited Christianity when they stood up and offered forgiveness to the shooter. Here we have an example of exhibiting the fruit of the Spirit and being effective ambassadors for Christ!

 

[HankD]

A Good tree bringeth forth good fruit. We as Christians are judged by others to be in Christ whether we like it or not. If we are Christians we bear the fruit of the Spirit, some more, some less. We all have different degree's in growth. The fruit of the Spirit can be found in Gal 5:23-24. Now to the point of the post. Are people to be judged on what they believe as doctrine of the bible to determine if they are a Christian or not ? For example: I don't believe in CoC doctrine ( Water Baptism regeneration). CoC don't believe in Baptist doctrine. Both go to scripture to prove their doctrine for their satisfaction. As far as the fruit of the Spirit is concerned, in a CoC's walk it seems to be there as much as a Baptist. Therefore should we determine that CoC's, CoG ( Three workings of grace) and others we don't agree with are saved because they bear the fruit of the Spirit but are just mislead on doctrine or should we determine their not saved at all ?

Both.
We should talk the talk.
We should walk the walk.

Our doctrine should be correct.
Our life should be blameless.

Probably the epistles of John covers this subject the best.

If we say... (three times this test statement is given).

But, anyone who denies that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (sarx - mortal, human, subject to death) is an antichrist.

Agape love - without it we are nothing 1 Corinthians 13.

But even with apparent pristine doctrine and a seemingly virtual and blameless life such can perhaps fool us for a while - 2 Corinthians 11:25; Galatians 2:4 (False brethren).

Interesting phase - false brethren - its one word in koine (psuedodelphos).

HankD

 

[beameup]

Nothing wrong with a Pastor exhorting others to "get busy" working for the Lord. And there is nothing wrong with a Pastor exhorting others to strive to follow Christ on the inside rather than the outside, like whitewashed coffins.

This pastor is the total control of the congregation. Like a giant head on a tiny body. He has no "elders". He suddenly took, at the end of Sunday service, a vote to spend a large sum of money. No one raised a hand against it. All he talks about on his site is how many souls he saved.
He told me that I told him that I wanted to serve the Lord and that he hadn't seen any "evidence" of it. He told me I'd better "get busy". Exactly in what capacity, I asked myself? As well, he is mixing the gospels of grace and law.

I have a question for him: what are you going to say to the Lord at the judgment seat? I dare say that the thought probably has never crossed his mind.

 

[Van]

I have no knowledge or interest in discussion the specifics of your Pastor's behavior. I was addressing what scripture commands of Pastors.

In this thread, we are not addressing judging whether a Pastor is fulfilling His office per scripture, but how to judge others as to whether they appear to be born anew Christians. First we said only God knows. Then we said we should judge, for the purpose of ministry toward them, based on their fruits. James thoughtfully and correctly said we judge false teachers by their words. But we, (SM and Van) said fruits includes more than words, such as the fruit of the Spirit and the fruit of the righteous. And naturally, an effective ambassador of Christ would exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. But winning souls, or at least contributing to that effort, is also our job.

Recall the old saying, if Christianity was a crime, would there be enough evidence to convict us?

 

[salzer mtn]

I live in the back woods I cannot just step out of the door and witness to people, well maybe the deer and the coyotes. If my fruit is based on winning people to Christ then I have very little. No man can look into another man's heart and say, you don't know Christ.

 

[Van]

Yes, but according to scripture, we can look into our own hearts and discern whether we are of the faith. How would you judge your efforts within your local church at serving others and allowing others to serve you? How effective an ambassador of Christ are you?

 

[salzer mtn]

Yes, but according to scripture, we can look into our own hearts and discern whether we are of the faith. How would you judge your efforts within your local church at serving others and allowing others to serve you? How effective an ambassador of Christ are you?

The scripture say's the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked: who can know it Jer 17:9 Comfort is not found in one looking in himself because we most likely will judge ourselves to be very clean and this would be self righteousness. We must look outside of ourselves to Christ who saves sinners and take our place in the dust.

 

[Van]

I guess you think Paul was wrong when he gave instructions for communion. What did you think he was telling you to do, in 1 Corinthians 11:28-31?

1) How would you judge your efforts within your local church at serving others and allowing others to serve you?

2) How effective an ambassador of Christ are you?

3) Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-- unless indeed you fail the test?

 

[Rebel]

I live in the back woods I cannot just step out of the door and witness to people, well maybe the deer and the coyotes. If my fruit is based on winning people to Christ then I have very little. No man can look into another man's heart and say, you don't know Christ.

Again I agree with you. This might get to be a dangerous thing.

I do, however, believe that we can get an indication based on the fruit that a person produces.

 

[JamesL]

Again I agree with you. This might get to be a dangerous thing.

I do, however, believe that we can get an indication based on the fruit that a person produces.

What constitutes fruit?

And where does scripture corroborate your position?

 

[Rebel]

What constitutes fruit?

And where does scripture corroborate your position?

Romans 2:6-7 "6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;"

Galatians 6:9 "Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary."

1 Peter 1:17 "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth".

Ephesians 5:5 "For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God."

Titus 1:16 "They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed."

1 John 3:7 "Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;"

Tit. 2:7 "....in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works."

2 Cor: 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

 

[Van]

So much nibbling around the edge, our fruit, as born anew believers are the people we help toward salvation. So simple...

 

[Rippon]

So much nibbling around the edge, our fruit, as born anew believers are the people we help toward salvation. So simple...

Simplistic is more like it.

So if A "helps" B "toward salvation" and B turns out to be a false convert should it be said that A produces bad fruit?

 

[Van]

Obviously a false convert was not helped toward salvation. Mr. Rippon manufactures difficulties where none exist. One would assume he denies that our fruit are those we help toward salvation. But did he say that? Nope. Folks, does anyone disagree with the premise, our fruit as born anew believers are those we helped toward salvation? So simple, yet no one has said yea or nay.

 

[JamesL]

Van,
Fruit can be relegated to convert counting, as when Jesus told His disciples that they were chosen to go and bear much fruit (John 15). But that's not the only use of "fruit" as a result. You quoted a half dozen verses on page 1.

 

[Van]

Hi James, right you are... I said fruit is used as a metaphor for more than one item. I was stressing the fruit of the righteous for a reason.

 

[beameup]

I have no knowledge or interest in discussion the specifics of your Pastor's behavior. I was addressing what scripture commands of Pastors.

The pastor creates the atmosphere of the church. In this case, he has created a church full of members that are only looking at outward actions of others. Since there is no "interaction" and there is no teaching or awareness of the Holy Spirit, there is no opportunity for the Holy Spirit to minister. If a pastor feels that he is the HEAD and the "body" just sits in their seats and listens, then there cannot be given any opportunity for the H.S. to "minister". He does have a brief pause where everyone gets up and shakes hands. I've been tempted to say "peace be to you", as this is stolen directly from the Catholic Mass. He makes no differentiation between Paul"s epistles and the "red letter" teachings. Thus he is ignorant of the Apostle to the Gentiles specific teachings as opposed to those concerning the Millennium and Messiah"s reign; he jumbles them all together (which creates confusion in the minds of his "flock").

 

[Van]

According to the model of church discipline given in scripture, you should discuss your views (post#37) with the person holding the leadership office in your local assembly.