What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

[Hope of Glory]

I am saying they were saved when they received Holy Spirit, just like everyone else.

peace to youraise:

Too bad about all those unsaved people in the OT, then, eh? Especially Moses and Elijah...

Oh, wait...

 

[DHK]

Without a cause

Jesus got angry, and it wasn't sin.

However, it's talking about being angry with a brother. A brother is one who is obedient. So, even if "without a cause" is not legitimate, as some manuscripts suggest, this verse is still limited in the scope of the anger.

1. Jesus did have a cause.
2. Many people don't have a cause.
3. Jesus didn't get angry in the sense that we think of anger. In other words he dind't lose his temper. He had righteous indignation. Jesus always was in full control of his faculties and emotions. He was never out of control.
Both the words "anger" and "wrath" in the Bible, when applied to Christ and God are anthropormorphic. In other words they are words that describe man, usually apply to man, but in some cases describe God only for the sole reason that man will be able to understand what God is like. But in reality God is not a God of anger. The word/phrase is anthropormorphic.

Unlike Christ/God man blows up, loses his cool, loses his temper, or just plain loses it. Christ did not do this.

A brother is not one who is obedient. He is one who is saved. He has chosen of his own free will Christ to be His Saviour. Here is an example of a brother:

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

All of the above, as sinful they were, were brothers.
The brother that had committed incest later repented and was accepted back into the church. He never lost his salvation, only his fellowship with God. After repenting his fellowship both with God and the church were restored. Man chooses of his own free will to sin.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

In 1 Corinthians 5:11, it's only someone who is called a brother. It is a supposable case.

The next verse goes on to say not to worry about those who are outside the church.

 

[ituttut]

That is interesting that you would make this statement - What are you going to confess, if your sins have already been forgiven. He died "once" for our sins, and if so, that took care of every sin we did, have, and will do. - but then bring up I John 1:9 at the end of your post.

Hi J. Jump. Thanks for your reply and your understanding, but we see differently on this. I'll explain at the end my reason for including I John 1:9, and perhaps you will see what I have been shown. Our salvation by the blood of Jesus Christ cannot be compromised.

I John 1:9 teaches in direct opposition to your statement. I John is in the present tense meaning today if I confess my sins He is faithful to forgive, and tomorrow if I confess my sins then He is faithful to forgive and then on Saturday if I confess my sins . . . and the direct opposite of that would be true as well. If I don't confess my sins then He is not obligated to forgive me sins and won't.

We have no quarrel over the point you make. It is in present tense and today is the day of salvation, not today, tomorrow, and the next day. This is how all before, Adam, Noah, Moses, David and the rest were saved. They had to endure until the end for their sins were only covered, and all of them had to do a work. That work of course was "blood sacrifice" of animals. What we have is so much better.

The church is teaching a false idea that Christians do not have to confess their sins because they were all forgiven at the cross. All sins are forgiven (past) and can be (forgiven present and future) because of the one-time death and shed blood of Jesus Christ. However present and future sins, must be dealt with on a continual basis.

Perhaps there may be some churches that teach confession today is not necessary, and if so then they are in error, and anyone that teaches confession of the Lord Jesus Christ is not necessary are not saved. This is the confession I speak of, and not of confessing sins for salvation

If they are not that doesn't mean we lose our salvation, that just means we lose fellowship with God, put our inheritance in jeopardy and other things, but salavation is never again an issue after one has believed.

I'll let this stand, even though you seem to say the opposite in your second paragraph.

In explanation of I John I'll use something close to what I have previously written, and was probably on another "website" of religious debate.

To understand 1:9 the stage must be set, and that happens beginning in verse 5. Each verse, 6 through 10, has a message in itself. If we don't divide out these verses we then sound close to the “troublers” of the Pentecostal churches in Judah, and saying you Christians must now come back to the gospel of the “circumcised” and do as we in our Sabbath's, washings, blood sacrifices, etc. We must continue to do something to make sure we are saved. This flies in the face of the Grace of God through faith salvation.

Verse 5 sets the stage. "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Verse 6 tells those who think they are saved, are not saved. "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth".

Verse 7 tells the believer all sins are forgiven. "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." This verifies verse 5 for no darkness remains as we are in Him.

Verse 8 says this one thinking they are saved only deceive themselves. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

I believe Verse 9 for explanation can be seen in Acts 19:18, "And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds." This is at the beginning of their salvation, that present day, and doesn't indicate continual confession. So I see those John is addressing in verse 9 coming the same way, their one time confession for forgiveness of sins. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Verse 10 says forget it if we keep on saying we have no sins to be forgiven. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

I personally cannot find in scripture to we Gentiles, other than the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed us of all sins when we first believed. "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses", Colossians 2:13.

 

[J. Jump]

itutut I think have made serious errors in your view of I Johh, but it looks like your mind is already made up, so we'll agree to disagree.

By the way those in the OT were not saved because of endurance they were saved by grace through faith just like everyone else.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Since John included himself in 1 John 1:9, he must have been unsaved at the time. I wonder when he got saved?

 

[gekko]

The next verse goes on to say not to worry about those who are outside the church.

what. you mean 1corinthians 5:12? to me that's what you're refering to HopeofGlory.

umm. but it doesnt say anything about not worrying about those who are outside the church...

do you worry about those outside the church?

 

[DHK]

Since John included himself in 1 John 1:9, he must have been unsaved at the time. I wonder when he got saved?

Yes, John was a sinner when he wrote the epistles. He got saved when he beleived that Christ was the Messiah. When do you think he got saved? Are you implying that an unsaved man wrote the First Epistle of John. John does say that he also needed to confess his sins.
DHK

 

[Marcia]

Read what JJump posted:

Actually each time you sin you are denying Christ as Lord.

Where is the biblical support for this? This seems very judgmental to me, to tell other believers that if they sin they are not honoring Jesus as Lord.

The denial I was talking about several pages ago was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as the sin believers cannot commit becaues that would mean they are denying the nature of Christ and therefore could not be Christians.

 

[Marcia]

JJump and Hope of Glory:

The word "deny" is a very strong word. Its first meaning is

to declare untrue

To tell believers that when they sin they are denying Jesus as Lord is, in effect, telling them that they are declaring and believing that Jesus is not Lord.

When we sin as believers, we are failing, and giving in to temptation. But we are not denying Jesus. Since Jesus is Lord for a believer, a believer would be denying Jesus to deny him as Lord. I do not see the distinction - either Jesus is your savior (and Lord) or he is not. I do not agree with Lordship salvation.

Words have meaning and they are powerful (see James 3). I think we need to be careful about accusing a believer that they are denying Jesus as Lord, especially without biblical support. Since I do sin, I have to vigorously deny your assertion that I am denying Jesus as Lord when I do so. That is an accusation I reject.

I still stand by my earlier statement that the one sin a believer cannot commit is blasphemy of the HS, which is attributing the power of Satan to Jesus' miracles, which is denying who Jesus is.

 

[J. Jump]

Where is the biblical support for this?

It's all over the place, but it's pretty self-explanatory.

Lord means Master. If Jesus is your Lord/Master then you are doing what your Master wants. If you are doing what you want (sin) then you are saying that He is not Lord, but you in fact are lord of your own life.

That in its basic form is denying Christ.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing a supernatural sign to the work of Satan. I think that has already been addressed but maybe not.

I personally don't think believers are capable of this at least in the context of the way it is delivered in Matthew 12 because that context does not exist in this dispensation.

 

[gekko]

Lord means Master. If Jesus is your Lord/Master then you are doing what your Master wants. If you are doing what you want (sin) then you are saying that He is not Lord, but you in fact are lord of your own life.

yeah. that's breaking the 1st commandment. well. its breaking all. but you know what i mean.

im going to quote from a song... just cause i like the song...

"ya'll about the cash and ice - hope you ready for change - you just broke the first commandment twice"

ooh. i like that song. wont post the artist. there'll be an uproar from the conservatives.

 

[Marcia]

yeah. that's breaking the 1st commandment. well. its breaking all. but you know what i mean.

Gekko, I'll add you to my what I said to JJump and Hope for Glory.

It's a serious thing to accuse people of denying Jesus as Lord. I do not do that.

I am still waiting for biblical support that clearly states that when believers sin, they are denying Jesus as their Lord. Keep in mind that deny means "to declare untrue."

To deny Jesus as Lord is written only of unbelievers in the Bible:

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

I am not one of these people.

 

[J. Jump]

Marcia I just explained it to you. Did you not read my post? Lord means Master. If you sin that means you were master of your own life at that moment denying that Jesus was the Lord of you life at that moment.

It's pretty simple.

 

[DHK]

Marcia I just explained it to you. Did you not read my post? Lord means Master. If you sin that means you were master of your own life at that moment denying that Jesus was the Lord of you life at that moment.

It's pretty simple.

Simple, but not Scriptural.
If I disobey my father, he is still my Father. I may tell a lie. But my Father does not disown my, and neither do I deny my Father by telling a lie. To say such is ridiculous, and neither does the Bible teach as much.

This is what the Bible says:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is breaking the law, not denying Christ. Stick with what the Bible says.
DHK

 

[Hope of Glory]

Several times in the Greek text, the Greek word for “Lord” should be translated “despot”; it's one who would exact his pound of flesh; justice is justice and right is right. He said unto his disciples one day, “why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?” A lord is one who has control; he has authority and is one before whom we prostrate ourselves and humbly submit ourselves to his will in obedience to his commandments.

If we are willfully disobedient, we deny this; we're saying, "I'm going to do what I want instead of what you want". It's saying that he's not Lord, for at least that moment.

Now, to use the "father" analogy, your father is your father, no matter what. You are born and cannot be unborn. But, if you work, your boss will not always be your boss.

The instant that you're saved, you're born from above and you're in the family. You cannot be unborn.

But, that doesn't mean that you will always submit yourself to his will in obedience to his commandments.

Edited to add: Before someone jumps on me for calling the Lord a "despot", I wanted to past the definition here. Today, in modern English, "despot" is often synonymous with "tyrant". But, that's not the primary definition of the word.

des•pot \"des-pet, -'pat\ n [MF despote, fr. Gk despotes master, lord, autocrat] 1 : a ruler with absolute power and authority 2 : a person exercising power tyrannically — des•pot•ic \des-"pa-tik\ adj — des•po•tism \"des-pe-'ti-zem\ n
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved

 

[James_Newman]

Simple, but not Scriptural.
If I disobey my father, he is still my Father. I may tell a lie. But my Father does not disown my, and neither do I deny my Father by telling a lie. To say such is ridiculous, and neither does the Bible teach as much.

This is what the Bible says:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is breaking the law, not denying Christ. Stick with what the Bible says.
DHK

Titus 1:16
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[Marcia]

Several times in the Greek text, the Greek word for “Lord” should be translated “despot”; it's one who would exact his pound of flesh; justice is justice and right is right. He said unto his disciples one day, “why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I say?” A lord is one who has control; he has authority and is one before whom we prostrate ourselves and humbly submit ourselves to his will in obedience to his commandments.

The Bible does not say we are denying Jesus when we sin. This is your interpretation. To deny Jesus as Lord is to say that it is untrue that He is Lord. Just because I sin, it does not mean I am saying that.

If we are willfully disobedient, we deny this; we're saying, "I'm going to do what I want instead of what you want". It's saying that he's not Lord, for at least that moment.

No, it's not. To say he is not Lord is to make a deliberate decision to believe that it is not true that Jesus is Lord.

To deny a proposition ("Jesus is Lord") involves belief and a choice. My belief that Jesus is Lord does not go away when I sin.

I posted the scripture that clearly states that it is unbelievers who deny Jesus is Lord. No matter how much a Christian may sin, we are not in the same category as unbelievers.

 

[James_Newman]

2 Timothy 2:12 contrasts denying the Lord with suffering. If we refuse to suffer, we deny him.
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[gekko]

Gekko, I'll add you to my what I said to JJump and Hope for Glory.

no! please dont add me to that group! lol. just teasin JJ and HoG. heh.
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i never said i agreed with what they said. alot of what they say is - imho - a little iffy to me. just me though.
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i agree with that DHK said... stick with what the scriptures say. (oh J.Jumps gonna come back at me for sayin that. hehehe. oh the wonders of knowing beforehand what people may say. hahaha)
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sorry for laughing so much. i get scowled at by a few people at school for laughing too much. i dont know why. i mean. its a habit. but a good one i believe. i dont laugh at everything. but anything that amuses me... well. i laugh at it. or with it. whichever.
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