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What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?
- Thread starter Bro Tony
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
No, they cannot.
I John 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth"
What are they lying about? Their fellowship with Christ.
I John 2:3 "And by this we know that we have come to know Him if we keep His commandments".
From where does our assurance come? By keeping His commandments.
I John 2:4 "The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
How does John the Apostle view a person who does not keep the commandments? He views him as a liar and denies that the "truth" of Christ is in that person. He views them as "lost".
Please do not give assurance of salvation to people who deserve none.
peace to you
raise:
Key word...fellowship, not justification.
.
Text says nothing about backsliding, or giving in to the sin nature.
I don't believe John viewed them as lost. "I have come to know him" is elsewhere translated from the greek "I have come to know about him". This implies fellowship.
Don't shoot the messenger. You need to bring this up with God...
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish--ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Eternal salvation is a one-time event in a person's life with that subject never to be revisited again. Once a person has placed his/her faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, the Holy Spirit breaths life into the dead spirit bringing it to life and that is a one-time act that is never reversed.
This are based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and therefore one's actions prior to, during and after salvation never come into the picture. God was satisfied with the work of Jesus and Him alone as it pertains to eternal salvation.
I John is not an epistle based on eternal salvation, it is speaking to saved individuals in regard to situations after the free gift of salvation has been received. Context is king.
This are based on the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross and therefore one's actions prior to, during and after salvation never come into the picture. God was satisfied with the work of Jesus and Him alone as it pertains to eternal salvation.
I John is not an epistle based on eternal salvation, it is speaking to saved individuals in regard to situations after the free gift of salvation has been received. Context is king.
Throughout that passage Paul was speaking of his sin nature. It is sin that dwells within me, he says. Sin is an outward act. Sin is a transgression of the law. The sin that dwells within Paul is his sin nature. The things he does that he doesn't want to do, but as the tendency that we all have at some time or another, we give into sin. We don't have to, but we do. We are sinners, and we choose to sin. Paul did as well. He chose to sin. His sin nature overcame him. Temptation overcame him. He was only human.Joseph_Botwinick said:
In desperation Paul cries out:
Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
The answer comes in the very next verse:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
The battle is in the mind. Who do you submit your mind to?
DHK
Hope of Glory
New Member
Cailiosa said:
Yes, yes, yes!!!
How difficult is this to understand?
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unforgivable sin both in this age and the age to come, but that's as far as it goes. How many other sins are unforgiven? The ones you don't confess, right? So, since unconfessed sin is not forgiven, does that mean that you lose your salvation?
Just because it's not forgivable in this age or in the age to come, does not mean that you lose your salvation. Scriptures tell us quite plainly that our spiritual salvaiton is secure and that nothing whatsoever (not even ourselves) can cause us to lose that.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Webdog, J.Jump
I have not denied the perseverence of the saints. Just as we cannot know who is lost, neither can we know with certainty that someone is saved based on a "one-time" event in their lives. It is not our jobs to do so, unless they are behaving as a lost person.
The proof of salvation is presented in scripture as a "transformed life", not as a "one-time event".
Jesus tells us in Matt. 18 that if someone continues to behave as a lost person, we should consider them to be a lost person. John says the same thing in I John, if you will accept it.
What I see is a danger that someone that is lost, and living like a lost person, will have some well meaning Christian tell him, "oh, if you've asked Jesus into your heart, then you are saved, no matter what you do", thereby giving them false assurance of salvation.
peace to youraise:
I have not denied the perseverence of the saints. Just as we cannot know who is lost, neither can we know with certainty that someone is saved based on a "one-time" event in their lives. It is not our jobs to do so, unless they are behaving as a lost person.
The proof of salvation is presented in scripture as a "transformed life", not as a "one-time event".
Jesus tells us in Matt. 18 that if someone continues to behave as a lost person, we should consider them to be a lost person. John says the same thing in I John, if you will accept it.
What I see is a danger that someone that is lost, and living like a lost person, will have some well meaning Christian tell him, "oh, if you've asked Jesus into your heart, then you are saved, no matter what you do", thereby giving them false assurance of salvation.
peace to you
raise:
Marcia
Active Member
Gershom said:
This statement about blasphemy against the HS was made specifically concerning those who were doing this while Jesus was on earth. Some believe that it is a sin that could only be committed by those who saw Jesus in the flesh and still denied him as the Messiah.
But even if it is not that, no Christian, imo, could say that Jesus performed miracles by the power of Satan. That, in effect, would be denying the nature of Christ and the person saying that would not therefore be a Christian indwelt by the HS.
capable of:
All sins lost can commit---------12
All sins except blashemy of the Holy Spirit---------29
Cannot commit willful sin------------2
All sin as long as confessed before death--------0
I would love to hear the biblical teaching that a Christian does not commit a willful sin. Then I would like to meet the Christian and spend a week with them to see this for myself.
BTW---whats with the ads in the middle of the threads?
Bro Tony
All sins lost can commit---------12
All sins except blashemy of the Holy Spirit---------29
Cannot commit willful sin------------2
All sin as long as confessed before death--------0
I would love to hear the biblical teaching that a Christian does not commit a willful sin. Then I would like to meet the Christian and spend a week with them to see this for myself.
BTW---whats with the ads in the middle of the threads?
Bro Tony
ccrobinson
Active Member
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=30551
I don't remember the exact page where it starts, but you'll find what you're looking for in this thread. SFIC believes that Christians who commit so-called "intentional" sins aren't Christians at all. I think the idea of "unintentional" sin is complete nonsense.
canadyjd said:Where do you find that in scripture? I believe in the perseverence of the saints, however, if a person is acting like a lost person, and publicly rejects Christ, he certainly shouldn't have any assurance of salvation. If is very likely he was never saved to begin with.
peace to you
I'm not sure it's in the Bible actually but think about it. If I accept Christ when I am say 18, then I live my life and when I get much older I get Alztimer's (sp) Disease, and reject God because in my mind I am still a 16 year old who hates God. Do you lose your salvation then? No of course not. If you could lose your salvation because you decide to reject God, then there wouldn't be all those verses saying we cannot lose our salvation. NO verse in the Bible says we are saved until we reject Christ and then we are no longer saved.
It is true that there may be a very large number of people that get "saved" and then reject God, and were never saved because they wern't sincere. But someone who was saved completely wholly and truelly, who is going through a really rough time, blames God and rejects Him, then dies before he can realize what he has done is wrong.... I don't believe God will reject Him.
I used to think the same way, until I was thinking about it because my Grandpa died of Altzimer's Disease, I asked my dad about it and he told me that once you are saved truell wholly and completly, you can NEVER lose your salvation!
I apologize if I gave you the impression that I thought you were. I didn't think you were denying it.
I disagree with that to the extent that if a person has believed in Jesus Christ's substitutionary death and shed blood then they are saved. That's where the Bible puts the period and that's where the discussion stops. It's a one-time event that the person accepts the Substitute on their behalf.
Incorrect. Your life (as in the way you live) should be transformed, but it is not a garauntee. One must make the moment-by-moment decision to die to self in order to have their life transformed. If they choose not to do that then you will not see any transformation.
Not exactly sure what you are speaking of in each of these chapters, it would have been helpful to have exact verse numbers.
But if in Matthew 18 you are talking about a saved person that sins against a brother and doesn't repent then they are to be disfellowshiped until they seek forgiveness and show repentance. With that I can agree.
It's not a matter of asking Jesus into their heart, it's a matter of someone knowing that they are a sinner and accepting the payment that Jesus Christ made with His shed blood and death upon the cross of Calvary.
If they believe that they are saved. If they have ever believed that then are were saved at that moment they believed that Truth and their saved state never changes.
Hope that clarifies where I am coming from.
Basically if someone says they have trusted Jesus and His substitutionary death and shed blood then we must treat them as a brother or sister in the Lord and all that entails.
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Bro Tony said:
I know that most sins are willful, but I do believe that there are a few sins that are done just without thinking.
Take me for example; when I was 16 years old, I wasn't a very strong Christian, I almost never read my Bible and only prayed when asked or in trouble. I had lots of BIble knowledge, but I lived a hypocritical life. Anyway, I have never liked lying, but when I was a teen because I wasn't right with God I was a big time lier. And half the time, I didn't even think about these lies, they just blurted out. I know it's really hard for most people to understand, but half of the time, I had NO prethought of these lies. They just blurted out, and many times even though I wasn't right with God, I still was a "good girl" and my concience would strike me and I would tell that person. "I'm sorry, I don't know why I said that, it's not true." It's really hard to say that to someone! I recoginzed then and now that I sinned and have repented, but I did not purpose in my heart to tell a lie.
My mom says she ALWAYS knows when I am lying, I guess I have this look in my eyes that I get when I lie, anyway whenever I would tell a lie on purpose my mom would always get this look in her eyes, that I knew she knew I was lying, but that never happened when they were the lies that just blurted out...
I truly believe that there are a few sins that you can do that aren't done willfully. I do recognize that they are sins and must be repented of because even if you didn't mean to, you still sinned.
But I believe that 99% of sins are commited willfully.
Cailiosa said:
Good post and thanks for sharing. Your post reminds me of something I am coming more and more to believe and that is that the primary sins of the Christian are not lying, cheating, stealing etc.....But the primary sin of the Christian is to decide to walk in the flesh rather than be submitted to the Holy Spirit. It is in the flesh that a Christian is capable of sinning just like a lost person is. If we continue to walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. That being the case we as Christians make a willful choice to walk in our flesh rather than in His Spirit----and that is a willful sin.
Bro Tony
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Cailiosa said:
I am sorry to hear about your grandfather. You did not say any thing about a mental disease affecting someone's mind. You simply said someone had made a profession of faith, and then later rejected Christ.
I do not believe anyone can loose their salvation. I also believe that God disciplines those He loves because that is what scripture says, and so a true believer who has "backslidden" will be disciplined by God and brought back into right conduct.
We should not be declaring someone to be saved or unsaved, because we just can't know. That is the job of God the Holy Spirit. What the scripture does say, over and over, is that people are known by the fruit they produce; that is, how they live their lives.
My point is that if they are living as an unbeliever, and have declared themselves to be unbelievers, we should consider them to be unbelievers; because that is what Jesus told us to do.
peace to you
raise:Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
DHK said:
DHK,
It seems like a bit of a contradiction for Paul to say he does not want to sin, and then for you to state that he willingly does so. Could you please explain how those to ideas harmonize with each other. I don't see a person who is seeking sin, but rather, is struggling with the sin nature which wars within his members against the will of the spirit in him. I could be wrong, but I think this is part of the process of sanctification.
Joseph Botwinick
Marcia
Active Member
Joseph, this Rom. 7 passage is disputed by a lot of people, including bible scholars and commentators. Some believe it is not talking about a believer struggling with sin, but someone struggling to obey the Law before being saved (as Paul did before he was saved). We just went over this passage in a bible study in Sunday School, and there are views both ways. A disputed passage is not the best text to use as evidence for any view.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
J.Jump
A person is saved when they are "born again" by the will of Holy Spirit. Part of that is a profession of faith, but people are certainly capable of making a profession of faith concerning the substitutionary nature of Christ's death and not be saved.
Jesus Himself said that on the day of judgement many would call Him Lord that would be cast into hell. Up until the moment Christ rejects them, they believe they are saved.
The "proof" of salvation is not saying you agree with a certain set of facts. The "proof" of salvation is a transformed life led by Holy Spirit.
BTW, the post I was referring to stated that someone was rejecting Christ. If someone is rejecting Christ, I am going to take them at their word and consider them to be lost. If they are backslidden Christians or truely lost the remedy is the same; they need to repent and believe in Jesus.
peace to youraise:
A person is saved when they are "born again" by the will of Holy Spirit. Part of that is a profession of faith, but people are certainly capable of making a profession of faith concerning the substitutionary nature of Christ's death and not be saved.
Jesus Himself said that on the day of judgement many would call Him Lord that would be cast into hell. Up until the moment Christ rejects them, they believe they are saved.
The "proof" of salvation is not saying you agree with a certain set of facts. The "proof" of salvation is a transformed life led by Holy Spirit.
BTW, the post I was referring to stated that someone was rejecting Christ. If someone is rejecting Christ, I am going to take them at their word and consider them to be lost. If they are backslidden Christians or truely lost the remedy is the same; they need to repent and believe in Jesus.
peace to you
raise:- Status