What Sins Are Christians Capable Of?

[Marcia]

I'm not sure it's in the Bible actually but think about it. If I accept Christ when I am say 18, then I live my life and when I get much older I get Alztimer's (sp) Disease, and reject God because in my mind I am still a 16 year old who hates God. Do you lose your salvation then? No of course not. If you could lose your salvation because you decide to reject God, then there wouldn't be all those verses saying we cannot lose our salvation. NO verse in the Bible says we are saved until we reject Christ and then we are no longer saved.

<snipped>.....I was thinking about it because my Grandpa died of Altzimer's Disease, I asked my dad about it and he told me that once you are saved truell wholly and completly, you can NEVER lose your salvation!

In the case of getting Alzheimer's (or maybe a serious mental illness), I would say that the person is not really rejecting Christ because they are not in their right mind and probably do not understand what they are doing. I am sure God understands.

I think what we mean when we talk about this topic here are people who reject Christ with a sane mind.

 

[Cailiosa]

In the case of getting Alzheimer's (or maybe a serious mental illness), I would say that the person is not really rejecting Christ because they are not in their right mind and probably do not understand what they are doing. I am sure God understands.

I think what we mean when we talk about this topic here are people who reject Christ with a sane mind.

Yes, I relaize that, that's why I said what I said near the bottom of that paragraph.

 

[gekko]

It seems like a bit of a contradiction for Paul to say he does not want to sin, and then for you to state that he willingly does so. Could you please explain how those to ideas harmonize with each other. I don't see a person who is seeking sin, but rather, is struggling with the sin nature which wars within his members against the will of the spirit in him. I could be wrong, but I think this is part of the process of sanctification.

yeah... i'd also like an explanation... does seem a little contradictory dont ya think?

 

[J. Jump]

A person is saved when they are "born again" by the will of Holy Spirit. Part of that is a profession of faith, but people are certainly capable of making a profession of faith concerning the substitutionary nature of Christ's death and not be saved.

I don't know of anyone that readily professes they are a sinner and that Jesus Christ died for the sins and shed His blood that were faking it.

I think there are probably a number of people that would say I have accepted Jesus, or I've asked Jesus into my heart or I have been saved, but that's when we need to ask specific questions. What does being saved mean to you, what does asking Jesus into my heart mean to you or what does accepting Jesus mean.

Find out what they mean and you'll find out if they understand the True gospel message of eternal salvation.

If they say they believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus, then they are saved and treat them as such.

Jesus Himself said that on the day of judgement many would call Him Lord that would be cast into hell. Up until the moment Christ rejects them, they believe they are saved.

And unfortunately the vast majority of Christendom takes that passage out of context and applies eternal salvation to it when eternal salvation is not the context of the passage.

The "proof" of salvation is not saying you agree with a certain set of facts. The "proof" of salvation is a transformed life led by Holy Spirit.

There is no "proof" of salvation. You either are saved or you are not. That's the end of the topic. It's either you are or you are not. There's no proving it.

The closest thing that one has to proving salvation is if you love the brethren and that's just proving that you are a disciple not even salvation, because being saved and being a disciple is not the same thing.

BTW, the post I was referring to stated that someone was rejecting Christ. If someone is rejecting Christ, I am going to take them at their word and consider them to be lost.

Depends on if they have accepted Him before. If they have then they are saved whether they want to be or not It's a done deal.

If they are backslidden Christians or truely lost the remedy is the same; they need to repent and believe in Jesus.

No a lost person just needs to believe. If they are backslidden then you are correct there must be repentence and confession and faith.

 

[canadyjd]

Find out what they mean and you'll find out if they understand the True gospel message of eternal salvation.

If they say they believe in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus, then they are saved and treat them as such.

What you are proclaiming is called "Sandemanism" (unsure of spelling), which is a heresy that has been refuted for some time. According to "Sandemanism" a person receives "salvation" when they give "mental assent" to a certain set of facts concerning Jesus. That is not biblical.

Mental assent does not equal salvation.

Born again by Holy Spirit does equal salvation.

peace to youraise:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Mental assent does not equal salvation.

Born again by Holy Spirit does equal salvation.

If you're talking about spiritual salvation, I wonder why Acts 16:31 simply stops at saying, "Believe (aorist; punctiliar action; plus nothing else) and you will (no doubt about it) be saved"? I guess the Philippian jailor was tricked.

Now, when you're born from above, you are born of the Spirit; you are spiritually alive. It happens the moment you believe; when you accept the gift that has been offered to everyone. With nothing more required to be saved spiritually. It's done. The work was finished by the Lord Jesus on the cross.
In John 1:12-13, it is talking about common salvation: "But as many as received [aorist] him, to them gave he power to become the sons [teknon, mature children] of God, . . .” This is talking about mature children. The KJV has the word sons, and that is a different Greek word entirely. This has to do with mature children. What he is saying here is this, If you receive or believe on the Lord Jesus as your personal savior, God has given you the authority and tools and the ability to mature. You do not have to stay a baby. There’s nothing more disgusting than seeing an adult acting like a baby. How would you feel if you came into a service where I was preaching and saw me with my thumb in my mouth? Disgusting! Now, the word “received” is in the aorist tense. That’s the same tense as the word “believe” is in the aorist tense in Acts 16:31, in which it answers the question, “What must I do to be saved?”

It is important to know if God has made it possible for man to seek him. I’ve heard it taught that man can’t seek the Lord, but is that true? No, it’s absurd and contrary to the revealed word of God! Man can seek the Lord!

When you're born from above, is that the end of your Christian life? It should not be, but for many it is. They have no desire to move on to maturity by eating the meat of the word. I know Christians who are good people (don't drink, don't smoke, etc.) who have the attitude, "Just so long as I'm saved, that's good enough for me". They're 20 year-old baby Christians, still sucking their thumbs.

But, they're saved, because they made that mental assent; they believed on the Lord Jesus as their savior.

 

[J. Jump]

Born again by Holy Spirit does equal salvation.

How is one born again by the Holy Spirit? Ephesians 2:8-9 and Acts 16:30-31 give us the best examples. One says it is grace through faith apart from man's works and the other says believe which is the verb form of faith.

So what is grace and what is faith?

Grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving him credit as if he did it.

What is faith? It is believing what God has said about a matter.

So what has God said about eternal salvation? He said that He sent His Son, Who lived a perfect life, shed His blood and died on the cross in my stead.

If I believe that then I am saved. If you believe that then you are saved. If Joe Blow believes that then he is saved. That's what the Bible says about the matter. Why would we try to confuse and complicate such a simple message?

I guess you can call that mental assenstion if you want to, but I think what you are thinking about is more along the lines that a person believes there was a man named Jesus that lived and that He probably did die on a cross, but they certainly don't believe He did it for them. That person while they believe in Jesus they will not be saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I guess you can call that mental assenstion if you want to, but I think what you are thinking about is more along the lines that a person believes there was a man named Jesus that lived and that He probably did die on a cross, but they certainly don't believe He did it for them. That person while they believe in Jesus they will not be saved.

I think that's why it says, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". It's acknowledging who he is, even if you don't treat him like it.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

It seems like a bit of a contradiction for Paul to say he does not want to sin, and then for you to state that he willingly does so. Could you please explain how those to ideas harmonize with each other.
Joseph Botwinick

Paul said it, not me:

Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

In the WEB
Romans 7:19 For the good which I desire, I don't do; but the evil which I don't desire, that I practice.

Paul willfully sinned. He chose to do so. He didn't desire it as such, but he gave into his own temptations and "practiced it" as he admits in Rom.7:19.

 

[gekko]

look at verse 20 DHK... what. dont like that verse?

"Now if I do that I would not, it is not more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me"

there's a war goin on inside. sin nature Vs. "Godly" nature ('Godly' i chose for a lack of better wording - it fits though). yes indeed there is a war. when we embrace Christ - when we abide in Christ - oh let me point it out in 1John 3:6 "whosoever abides in him sinneth not" - and then the earlier verse in 1John 1 "whoever says they have not sin is a liar and the truth is not in him." hmm. so how does that work?

if we abide in Christ we are supposed to be like Him - righteous and holy. without sin. according to 1John anyways. but we'd be labelled liars if we say we have no sin.

sounds contradictory dont it.

like i said - theres a war goin on inside. flesh nature Vs. Godly nature.
our flesh nature desires to defy God and sin
our Godly nature desires to become righteous and holy as He is Holy.

i hate sin. do you? when you lie - do you blatantly choose to lie? i would pray you do not. in the times that i have lied since i've become a true christian - i notice that - i hate it - i dont want to do it - but i do it. but its not me that does it - its my flesh nature. my flesh nature chooses to do it - habitually - does it without thinking - ignorance in a way.

i would choose anything else other then lying if it came to a sitch like that. but if i do lie - is it me that chooses it? or is it my flesh nature that does it without thinking and then i notice that and confess that sin to the Lord (as stated in 1John)?

think about it. think hard. and thoroughly.

dont be thinking lightly about it just because this coming from an 18yr. old who many think doesnt know anything when it comes to biblical matters.

God bless.
gek

 

[ituttut]

It has been stated before on this board that genuine Christians will not willfully sin against God. If a person willfully sins against God that proves they were never truly saved. That the Bible teaches that sin is a willful act of disobedience against God, it is clear that when we as Christians sin we do so because we choose to. The poll and the discussion for this thread is what sins are truly born again Christians capable of?

I voted "All sins that lost people can commit." Any sin applicable today, we could do it as well as they.

 

[DHK]

look at verse 20 DHK... what. dont like that verse?

I like all the verses of the Bible Gecko. I just don't have the time or space to post them all.

"Now if I do that I would not, it is not more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me"

there's a war goin on inside. sin nature Vs. "Godly" nature ('Godly' i chose for a lack of better wording - it fits though). yes indeed there is a war.

Got no argument there

i would choose anything else other then lying if it came to a sitch like that. but if i do lie - is it me that chooses it? or is it my flesh nature that does it without thinking and then i notice that and confess that sin to the Lord (as stated in 1John)?

You choose lying Gecko. You make the choice. Your sin nature is YOU. You can't divorce your sin nature from yourself. If you lie you have made the choice to do so. Don't go blaming the devil, his demons, your sin nature, your parents, your genes, society, or any other thing. Don't blame Calvin either. You make a deliberate choice in and of yourself to sin. You have no other person to blame but yourself. And once people start shifting the blame onto other objects for theiir own sin, they bring upon themselves guilt. Carrying a load of unconfessed sin or guilt is a quick road to a mental institution. We are accountable for our sins. We need to confess them and ask forgiveness for them. There will come a day when everyone of us shall stand before God and give account of ourselves. We will give account of the choices that we have freely made in this life--whether to sin or not.
DHK

 

[gekko]

Don't blame Calvin either.

let me make myself clear on this point. i am not calvinist. i am not armenist. i am not mennonite. i am not presbyterian. i am not catholic. i am not lutheran. i am not baptist. the views i hold are closest to baptist. you can call me baptist. i'll label myself a disciple of Christ.

so please dont bring calvin into this. whoever he is.
---

We are accountable for our sins. We need to confess them and ask forgiveness for them. There will come a day when everyone of us shall stand before God and give account of ourselves.

i agree.
---

i pray that my will and God's will are one. for we are called to be one with the Lord.

i confess that i have willfully sinned. that has been dealt with. by the grace of God i pray that i hate sin. and when i do sin. that i would sin against my will. which, i pray, is ultimately God's will.

it may be a choice. it may not be. i choose to cooperate with the Lord - for He's called me to do so. and many others as well.

in cooperating with the Lord - He commands that we obey Him. not as robots - but as a free choice.

i choose to hate sin. when i sin. i sin against my will. although it may not always happen because there is a war - and, for humans, one side doesnt always get the glory.

spiritually speaking of war - only one side wins. i pray i am on that side. the side that chooses not to sin against God's will.
---

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Your sin nature is YOU. You can't divorce your sin nature from yourself.

DHK

DHK,

That seems to run contrary to what Paul says in Scripture:

20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 7:20

Joseph Botwinick

 

[donnA]

unwillful would mean you didn't choose to sin but did anyway, but we as christians make a conscious choice to sin, which would be willful sins.
I think christians are just as capable of sin as anyone else.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I agree that when we sin, it is by choice, but I would like to say that when the Bible talks about "willful sin", I think it's talking about doing what is right in your own eyes. In other words, "It's OK for me to do ________, I don't care what the Bible says." (This is opposed to, "I know it's wrong, but I did it any way.)

 

[ccrobinson]

What's the difference between those 2?

 

[ituttut]

Webdog, J.Jump

I have not denied the perseverence of the saints. Just as we cannot know who is lost, neither can we know with certainty that someone is saved based on a "one-time" event in their lives. It is not our jobs to do so, unless they are behaving as a lost person.

The proof of salvation is presented in scripture as a "transformed life", not as a "one-time event".

Jesus tells us in Matt. 18 that if someone continues to behave as a lost person, we should consider them to be a lost person. John says the same thing in I John, if you will accept it.

What I see is a danger that someone that is lost, and living like a lost person, will have some well meaning Christian tell him, "oh, if you've asked Jesus into your heart, then you are saved, no matter what you do", thereby giving them false assurance of salvation.

Agree "one time events" can and will occur in our lives, and you know we cannot become "unsaved".

I think we must be careful of attempting to judge if one is lost, for all in Christ may not recognize the extent of "liberty and freedom" we have in Christ.

Is there a well meaning Christian that would tell anyone to "keep it up" after being saved? I would doubt that "well meaning Christian" is of the Christian faith of Grace through faith.

However one in the Body of Christ can and will sin. Because we may sin, does not mean we deny Him. If we sin, then is the time of greater praise to Him for that sin we just committed had already been forgiven at the Cross.
__________________

 

[pinoybaptist]

Wellll, to stick my foot into this murky water . . .

I think we Christians are capable of doing any old nasty thing the public in general is capable of doing.

I think how long we continue to sin, our separation, our repentance are all marks of how much we've allowed our carnal nature to dominate. I think the longer that I'm His, the more I want to serve and please Him, the quicker I am to recognize what I've done and the sooner I confess.

way to go, sis.:thumbs:

 

[ituttut]

Wellll, to stick my foot into this murky water . . .

I think we Christians are capable of doing any old nasty thing the public in general is capable of doing.

I think how long we continue to sin, our separation, our repentance are all marks of how much we've allowed our carnal nature to dominate. I think the longer that I'm His, the more I want to serve and please Him, the quicker I am to recognize what I've done and the sooner I confess.

way to go, sis

mcdirector & pinoybaptist: I Agree we are sinners saved for our sins have been forgiven which should tell us something. I don't understand your following reasoning of "the sooner I confess"?

What are you going to confess, if your sins have already been forgiven. He died "once" for our sins, and if so, that took care of every sin we did, have, and will do. I don't believe He left any of my sins that I confessed to when I was placed into His Body.

I believe I am OSAS, and as that is so, I am not allowed to believe that I am saved until I sin, become unsaved until I "confess again". If we are in the Body of Christ we are saved, and we "worship and praise Him" for by the Grace of God our Father, through the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, at the Cross the Holy Spirit has baptized us into the death of the Father's only begotten Son, where we're thereby sealed.

I am not saying anyone here is not saved, but do we understand our salvation according to the gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven as revealed to Paul? Romans 10:9-13; 15:9-20, and as pointed out in I John 1:9.