What songs can a Calvinist teach to their children?

1. What other reason do we need?

2. Why do you think it is a cop-out? Isn't obedience to God enough of a reason?

Joseph Botwinick

 

As a Calvinist, I think this is probably my favorite hymn:

I know whom I have Believed

I especially like this part:

Notice it is the Spirit of God who convinces man of sin and not some persuasive Arminian argument. Also note that Jesus is revealed through the Word, and not some program designed to convince the lost of something only God can create in man...FAITH. It is a great hymn.

For those who like to take music of the world and read a Christian message into it, may I suggest the following:

Abba song to Abba, Father



Joseph Botwinick

 

Dear Texas Sky,
You are correct, to do something simply because God says so makes the motive for the obedience selfish rather than for the glory of God. So, imho, you correctly id. that reply as a cop out. There is no warrant for us to serve God simply because He said so, but that we do it because of His Love, Mercy, Holiness, etc. Others, even Calvinists, may disagree with me on this, but the fact remains that if my obedience is designed for the purpose of exacting a reaction from God, then I have by that very obedience made God a debtor to me. Christ said even in doing all we are suppose to do, we still must admit we are unprofitable servants.

Now, as to whether Calvinists believe their witnessing will have an affect. Charles Spurgeon use to preach and sometime pray as if he hoped that God would greatly increase the number of the elect.

Do you remember Ex. 32? For lack of time and space, I would ask you to read it. This is the time that Moses is on the mount receiving the Law from God. What did Israel do? What did Aaron do? What does God teach to us through his conversation with Moses? Remember God told Moses to separate himself from Israel and let Him destroy them in His wrath and that He would make a nation of Moses.

Moses reminded God of His covenant with Abraham and the fathers of Israel, is this what changed the mind of God? Did God forget the covenant he made with Abraham? He declared that to be an everlasting covenant

So, it bears out to us that God's purpose in recording this in His word is not to teach us that prayer changes himself. Moses' prayer was a prayer of intercession on behalf of the chosen people of God, his prayer was a prayer that humbled himself, reminded himself the promise was not through himself but through the seed of Abraham and he knew it was the seed of one, which Paul describes in speaking of these things.

God's Covenant is an Everlasting Covenant, it's conditions are established by Him and are fulfilled in His Son, the Second Person of the Godhead; this fulfillment then is made known to the elect, not by the wisdom of man's words, but by the power of God (the Holy Spirit), which is the Gospel and therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith(Ro. 1.16-17). Follow the thought of the righteousness of God through Romans and you will see it is Christ.

Now, for a Calvinist to simply say they witness because it is the command of God, while not untrue, they are not recognizing the fact that the purpose of God in Election is to conform His people to the image of Christ. The purpose for the witness of His people is not to 'get' people saved. The Bible says He has saved us and called us with a Holy calling. The application of the Eternal Covenant is by the Spirit alone.

Where ever a believer in the Doctrines of Grace may witness, he/she does not do so 'hoping' that some one or many would choose of their own power to come to the table God has prepared through Christ; but knowing that because God is Sovereign that His promise

Now, I don't know if I have come close to answering any of your questions, but let me say that the why of my preaching, the why of my witnessing, or praying to or for the lost has nothing to do with the mere fact that it is a commission given to the church.

It is because I know that God has a people and church redeemed by His Blood. Being redeemed, they have been bought out of their bondage to sin by the Son of God. In this my hope rests,

Well, I have written too much and perhaps should have sent the reply to you in another fashion, however, I wanted to reply publicly so it can not or would not be said I tried to sway your opinion privately.

Thank you for your kind words regarding the Spirit of Christ that you perceive to be in me. I truly seek daily to search my own heart, for it is I alone that shall stand before the Lord and I alone that will answer for what I have and have not done in the flesh to glorify his name.

Please, continue to feel free to ask questions regarding God's free Grace;

Perhaps you could start a thread asking why Calvinists witness.

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

 

You know i really get sick of this lack of education. If some could get away with it, they would burn us or place us on a cross. This is really uncalled for and should be pulled. This shows little or better NO understanding of election from the Bible. How the board allows this, i'm unsure.

Diana...do you really think this is the case, or are you showing your hate for calvinist by making up such silly statements? Election is used by God and if you choose not to believe it, you must answer to God..not me. But for you to attack others in the way you just have is showing nothing but hate in your heart.

This is uncalled for..and i do not find funny. </font>[/QUOTE]Jarthur001, I didn't find the mocking very funny either.

 

Bro. Dallas,

It has nothing to do with eliciting a response from God, rather, with knowing your role. It is God who tells us what to do and we are the ones who obey. We do not do so because of any good that is within us, but because of the grace that God has given us.

Joseph Botwinick

 

good answer bro. dallas. as for the OP, this is by far not the first and likely won't be the last time i've heard anti-Calvinists use songs to prove their theology. The thread got kinda hairy, then it rallied. My two cents:

1. The church's one foundation
is Jesus Christ her Lord;
she is his new creation
by water and the Word.
From heaven he came and sought her
to be his holy bride;
with his own blood he bought her,
and for her life he died.

2. Elect from every nation,
yet one o'er all the earth;
her charter of salvation,
one Lord, one faith, one birth;
one holy name she blesses,
partakes one holy food,
and to one hope she presses,
with every grace endued.

3. Though with a scornful wonder
we see her sore oppressed,
by schisms rent asunder,
by heresies distressed,
yet saints their watch are keeping;
their cry goes up, "How long?"
And soon the night of weeping
shall be the morn of song.

4. Mid toil and tribulation,
and tumult of her war,
she waits the consummation
of peace forevermore;
till, with the vision glorious,
her longing eyes are blest,
and the great church victorious
shall be the church at rest.

5. Yet she on earth hath union
with God the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won.
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with thee.

 

Originally posted by Pipedude:

There is only one edition and it was written before Calvin commented on it.

No one can preach Jesus, nor his doctrine without preaching the Doctrines of Grace.

Anyway, you are right, this thread is about music and singing and not the particular teachings of the Doctrines of Grace.

Still, should we not be instant in season and out?

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

 

Dear Brother Joseph,
I would not disagree with you. But, imho, not a few Calvinists find comfort in their election. And in doing so, their motivation is neither service nor certainly not glory to God.

This is true, whether we like it or not.

I do not wish to offend you or anyone else, but I do think it is just as easy for a Calvinist to fall into a false hope because of election as it would be for any other to fall into the same false hope because of a decision they made one time.

Again, as you know and would affirm from scripture, the only object of our faith is Christ, anything less is equivalent to Israel setting about to establish their own righteousness and ignoring the righteousness of God.

Don't mean to be badgering ya, just wanted to say that, as I feel it needs to be said.

No one is saved if they are hoping in their election; and no one is saved if they are hoping in a choice made from a will dead in trespasses and sin.

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

 

My favorite, too.

I remember singing it with the congregation at a Southern Baptist Founders Conference in Mansfield, Texas a few years ago. Wow! That may be the closest I will ever feel to Heaven on this earth.

Lyrics For "And Can It Be?"

by Charles Wesley (1707-1788)


1. And can it be that I should gain
An int'rest in the Savior's blood?
Died He for me who caused His pain?
For me, who Him to death pursued?
Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

CHORUS

Amazing love! How can it be
That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me!



2. 'Tis mystery all! The Immortal dies!
Who can explore His strange design?
In vain the first-born seraph tries
To sound the depths of love divine!
'Tis mercy all! let earth adore,
Let angel-minds inquire no more.

CHORUS


3. He left His father's throne above
So free, so infinite His grace!
Emptied Himself of all but love
And bled for Adam's helpless race!
'Tis mercy all, immense and free
For O my God, it found out me.

CHORUS

4. Long my imprisoned spirit lay
Fast bound in sin and nature's night.
Thine eye diffused a quick'ning ray:
I woke -- the dungeon flamed with light!
My chains fell off, my heart was free
I rose, went forth and followed Thee.

CHORUS

5. No condemnation now I dread
Jesus, and all in Him, is mine!
Alive in Him, my living Head
And clothed in righteousness divine
Bold I approach the 'ternal throne
And claim the crown thru Christ my own.

CHORUS

The tune can be heard here - www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/c/acanitbe.htm

[ August 02, 2005, 01:59 AM: Message edited by: KenH ]

 

Thanks for sharing the words, I have never heard this song.

The above lines have caught my attention, all of the song is very, very good, but this portion is imho, an amazing thought.

Bro. Dallas

 

TexasSky,

Very good Hymn - and one of my favorites. Perfectly compatible with Calvinistic Theology.

 

Another one that passes the muster!!!

 

My all time un-favorite and I believe most un-Biblical hymn in the hymnbook.

VERSE 1
The Savior is waiting to enter you heart.
Why don't you let Him come in.
There's nothing in this world to keep you apart.
What is your answer to Him.

Verse One denies the Biblical Picture of the Seeking Christ that we find in Luke 15 and in Luke 19. He is pictured in this hymn as a waiting Christ - one who is inactive and passive in the Salvation experience - one that only responds to human "willingness". There is something in this world that keeps us apart from Christ, it is sin and disobedience.

CHORUS
Time after time He has waited before
And now He is waiting again.
To see if you're willing to open the door.
Oh how He wants to come in.

In the Chorus it is stated that Time after Time this has happened. - that Jesus has waited on you. I find that supported nowhere in scripture. That is purely conjecture by the song writer.

VERSE 2
If you'll take one step t'ward the Savior my friend,
You'll find His arms open wide.
Receive Him and all of your darkness will end.
Within your heart He'll abide

In verse 2 the initiative is taken by the person to move or "take one step toward the savior," as if that will trigger a response from Christ. If you believe in a Plan of Salvation then follow these steps. Salvation in this hymn is something you do in order to receive Christ or accept Christ. This is not a picture of a God Initiated Encounter with Man that produces a life change and a new Birth - this is a picture of a impotent, weak savior bound eternally by the "free will" of mankind.

CHORUS
Time after time He has waited before
And now He is waiting again.
To see if you're willing to open the door.
Oh how He wants to come in.

Oh and by the way this hymn is a late addition to Baptist life. Our forefathers would have been amazed indeed by its implied theology. And yes Bro. Dallas, Amazing Grace was written by John Newton who was a Calvinist.

 

In all that you do, do for the glory of God.

KJB

 

The whole premise of this thread is asinine. Many childrens songs are lacking biblicaly anyhow. I teach my children hymns, and yes they can learn them just fine.

Funny how many of the songs in our hymn book were writen by Calvinists and Arminians sing them. Amazing Grace comes to mind, but there are plenty of others as well. Take a look at all the verses for "I know whom I have believed."

I know not why God’s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known,
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own.

Refrain

But I know Whom I have believèd,
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I’ve committed
Unto Him against that day.

I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart,
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart.

Refrain

I know not how the Spirit moves,
Convincing us of sin,
Revealing Jesus through the Word,
Creating faith in Him.

Refrain

I know not what of good or ill
May be reserved for me,
Of weary ways or golden days,
Before His face I see.

Refrain

I know not when my Lord may come,
At night or noonday fair,
Nor if I walk the vale with Him,
Or meet Him in the air.

Refrain

 

i sing all of these...+ power in the blood...years i spent in vanity and pride.....look and live.....nearer still nearer...my jesus i love they.....jesus loves me....jesus loves the children of the world...as a matter of fact i bet there are very FEW songs if any..that you sing..that i do not.

what does this tell you about your sources?

 

the wording in this song has always been a worry to me. I have sang it...and woundered if others were thinking about the picture i saw.. A helpless God...just waiting and waiting.

The Bible points out that God seeks out..for man does not come. We are told to GO TELL.....

thanks for sharing..now i know others have seen this too

 

Songs of the Lukewarm Church:

1. Blest Be The Tie That Doesn't Cramp My Style

2. Pillow of Ages, Fluffed for Me

3. I Surrender Some

4. I'm Fairly Certain That My Redeemer Lives

5. Sit Up, Sit Up for Jesus

6. Take My Life and Let Me Be

7. What an Acquaintance We Have in Jesus

8. Where He Leads Me, I Will Consider Following

9. He's Quite A Bit To Me

10. Oh, How I Like Jesus

11. Fill My Spoon, Lord

12. It Is My Secret What God Can Do