What the Devil is going on?

[Marcia]

Posted by Bob Ryan:

Marcia - how does your view deal with the fact that the actions of the Roman guard and the betrayal of the Jews - only "ADDS" to the problem - ADDS to the debt that Christ must pay?

I am really not sure what you mean.

What do you mean by "my view?"

 

[BobRyan]

They are not the "solution" rather they are "adding to the problem" they add to the load of debt that is "owed" rather than 'solving it'.

Christ was already dying (in His own words) on the way TO Gethsemane.

Sweating great drops of blood is a sign of extreme mental anguish spilling over into the body.

As is the problem of a broken heart.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

I do not think the Romans were a solution, just that God used them. To have Jesus executed in this world, one would need to use people and all people are fallen and sinful, Roman soldiers, the Jews, anyone. Jesus died the way it was planned by God. Even if Jesus started dying in the Garden, that was not the atonement, which required an actual death and the atonement was on the cross. Scripture supports that.

There is no scriptural support that what Jesus suffered in the garden was the weight of sins -- as the text reads, it is facing what he going to go through on the cross that causes the sweating of blood. The text says that he is "grieved" and "sorrowful." His realization and facing of what is upon him is what is indicated by the text. There is nothing there to indicate that at that point he is suffering the payment for sins; that was on the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Marcia:
[QB] I do not think the Romans were a solution, just that God used them. To have Jesus executed in this world, one would need to use people and all people are fallen and sinful,

The "wages" of sin is not "being executed by some wicked fallen human".

Christ paid our debt of sin - a debt determined by God alone. A debt that says nothing about "wicked men needing to execute you".

He paid "our debt". He paid what WE owe due to sin. Sinners standing in the lake of fire will not see a long line of wicked men waiting to execute them.

Marcia said -- Even if Jesus started dying in the Garden, that was not the atonement,

Indeed it was the atonement - it was the "atoning sacrifice" it was the start of that supernatural suffering for sin that no wicked man could "inflict" - no not in all of time.

It demonstrates that the "price paid" had nothing to do with wicked men helping God make the payment. In fact those wicked men only INCREASED the debt that must be paid - they did nothing to "pay it".

God alone assembled the debt, and placed its weight on Christ and allowed that supernatural event to take place so that he suffered all the accumulated suffering owed by all humans in all of time.

Christ alone paid it. The atoning sacrifice WAS very much - about suffering.

There is no support at all for the idea that being sorrowful unto death was a "coincidence" with Christ, or "Was not true" with Christ, or was "just Christ having a bad day".

There is no support at all for that supernatural sorrow of the soul AND the sweating of great drops of blood - being "the every day prayer session of believers".

I suppose you can ignore these things if it helps you - but taking the details in and seeing the debt paid as something other than wicked Romans mistreating another innocent man is key to understanding the Gospel and is key to distancing your view from the RCC.

Marcia -- it is facing what he going to go through on the cross that causes the sweating of blood.

That is simply not true. In the words of the Last Supper that we see in John 13-17 we do not see a Savior "fearing what is to come" or "trembling about a great fear of having to suffer".

Rather it is only AFTER the suffering BEGINS - with the sorrow that brings him to the point of death BEFORE the Garden of Gethsemane that we see the sweating of great drops of blood.

It is not anxiety and fear of what is coming - but rather what is coming has already come - the suffering had begun - Christ was already (by His own words) at death's door.

To see how he "anticipated the event" read the details of John 13-17 - tell me where you see the "trembling Jesus" so fearful that he is about to sweat great drops of blood.

Nothing of the kind is presented.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

There is no support at all for that supernatural sorrow of the soul AND the sweating of great drops of blood - being "the every day prayer session of believers".

I never said that it was "the every day prayer session of beleivers." This is a straw man, Bob.

What exactly are you saying? I find your statements very obtuse. You keep going on about wicked men -- I am not sure what the Romans have to do with anything. They are just part of the story, which is pretty obvious. Are you saying that it was an accident that the Romans executed Christ or that God did not intend it?

I don't know why you keep bringing up the RC view. I have absolutely no background in the RC church and as far as I know, I pretty much disagree with most of their teachings that are outside the essentials.

Why are you so focused on the Garden? Yes, Jesus was suffering greatly there -- but not for sins. He did not have the weight of sins on him there and you cannot show that from the text.

But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Gal 6.14

and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. Eph 2.16

and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. Col 1.20

. . .by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. Col 2.14

Where has the world been crucified to the believer? The cross.

Where were we reconciled? The cross.

Where were our record of debts cancelled? The Garden? No, the cross.

I do not deny that Jesus was suffering in the Garden, and that this had to do with his immediate facing of the trial and execution. I am not putting down what Jesus went through in the Garden. I merely stated that the atonement and paying of debt of sin was on the cross. This is historic and Biblical Christian confession.

I can really relate to the topic here -- "What the devil is going on?" I am so far from understanding what you are criticizing me for that I cannot even address your post.

 

[BobRyan]

You can not simply hide behind labels. The text of scripture is correct - Christ Soul was "sorrowful EVEN to the point of death" BEFORE the Garden of Gethsemane.

That was Christ enduring supernatural anguish - it was not simply Christ having a bad day.

Christ sweat great drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane - "again" as much as you may think of this as the every day occurance - it was not.

It is indicative of extreme suffering and anguish - He was dying (as HE said) for the sins of the World.

You seem confused by the fact that this suffering continued on through to the cross and to the point of death on the cross. Your objective is to be mystified by the suffering before the cross - and then declare that Christ only started suffering for sin - when the wicked Roman soldiers began to mistreat him.

That is in fact the RC view. I don't claim that you are RC at all - I just think you are unknowingly borrowing a page from their book.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

I don't deny that Jesus began suffering in the Garden, I am only saying that he did not atone for sins there. I think the difference in our view is that you see the atonement as a process of suffering over a period of time whereas I believe the Bible says the debts were paid on the cross.

I am focused on the Bible verses that tell us the debt was paid on the cross; that does not deny Jesus's suffering before the cross.

 

[BobRyan]

God's Word tells us that the death of Christ was nearly accomplished even before the Garden of Gethsemane.

God's Word says that Christ said "My soul is sorrowful even to the point of death". This is instructive to us as Christians because we know exactly why Christ came and what He came to do. We know that the evil deeds of the wicked Romans soldiers were not the "focus of His mission".

Rather He came to pay for the sins of the World - to pay the debt that the Law of God (not the wicked law of Rome) required.

In Christ,

Bob