What theology "name" to those who deny God needs To "Grace" those saved?

[DHK]

exactly!
just was trying to see IF one holding that a sinner can by themselves produce faith by hearing Gospel ALONE is Semi pel!

We don't "produce" faith. Man is born with faith. Jesus verified this when he said Unless you have faith as a little child... I don't deny the words of Jesus that children have faith; that one's saving faith must be like the faith of a little child--full of confidence. The object of their faith was full confidence in their parents. The object of an unsaved person is full confidence in Christ who is able to save. God doesn't give them the faith. It is they that must believe with the faith that God gave them when they were born. I believe in the words of Christ.

Furthermore, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
In order for the object of that faith (Christ) to be known, it must be presented clearly. One must know whom he believes. Thus the word of God is absolutely necessary. We don't believe in blind faith. The more one listens to the word of God the more he will learn of Christ. Thus, the more confidence/faith he will be able to put in his word/promises, and in Christ himself.

Seems trhat some here say that man CAN have faith instrinsic in themselves that the Gospel itself is the Grace of God , NOT any other grace ...

It is Christ that said that little children have faith. Take your argument up with him.
Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
Without the gospel one cannot be saved. There is grace in the gospel, in the atoning work of Christ. Without that grace you cannot be saved.

I was taught that both cals/Arms do see man as being depraived and that before the Gospel can save them God has to bring them to a state able to respond...
cals say God applies grace directly, arms that man receives it

I would call that mysticism. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sinfulness and show you that, you, a sinner, are exceeding sinful, and therefore in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ who paid the penalty of your sin.
Why do you need some magical sacrament of grace in order that you may respond to the gospel. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sin. And that is all.

Both would say Gospel preaching to unsaved ALONE not enough!

The gospel (the atoning work of Christ) is the grace that Eph.2:8 speaks about.
Here is how one is saved:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--Paul came and preached the gospel

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--The gospel, by which you are saved. Clearly it says the gospel saves.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
--In verses three and four, the gospel is summarized.

There is salvation in a nutshell.
It must be received or believed (vs.2), but not in vain, that is with emptiness. There it is speaking of a genuine belief. The grace is found in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that the Lord of glory, the Creator of heaven and earth would come from the glories of heaven to die for such a sinner as I. That is grace!

 

[JesusFan]

We don't "produce" faith. Man is born with faith. Jesus verified this when he said Unless you have faith as a little child... I don't deny the words of Jesus that children have faith; that one's saving faith must be like the faith of a little child--full of confidence. The object of their faith was full confidence in their parents. The object of an unsaved person is full confidence in Christ who is able to save. God doesn't give them the faith. It is they that must believe with the faith that God gave them when they were born. I believe in the words of Christ.

The saving type of faith described in Bible not able to be produced by "natural man"

Furthermore, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
In order for the object of that faith (Christ) to be known, it must be presented clearly. One must know whom he believes. Thus the word of God is absolutely necessary. We don't believe in blind faith. The more one listens to the word of God the more he will learn of Christ. Thus, the more confidence/faith he will be able to put in his word/promises, and in Christ himself.

Again, due to being dead in the sense we are now depraived and cannot come to God by ourselves...

It is Christ that said that little children have faith. Take your argument up with him.

NO used as an example/illustration of how one come to jesus not them per say!

Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

Yes, to those whom are the called of God!

Without the gospel one cannot be saved. There is grace in the gospel, in the atoning work of Christ. Without that grace you cannot be saved.

Again, His grace is ONLY effectually to save thom whom God has called!

I would call that mysticism. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sinfulness and show you that, you, a sinner, are exceeding sinful, and therefore in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ who paid the penalty of your sin.

HS does more than that though to us who are the called of God in Christ... Literally, has to "wake us up" in order that we might hear and receive/believe!

Why do you need some magical sacrament of grace in order that you may respond to the gospel. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sin. And that is all.

Not according to peter/paul/john and most of all jesus!

The gospel (the atoning work of Christ) is the grace that Eph.2:8 speaks about.

part of it, need to see God has doing "whole package" of salvation, preaching of Gospel part of that...

Here is how one is saved:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--Paul came and preached the gospel

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--The gospel, by which you are saved. Clearly it says the gospel saves.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
--In verses three and four, the gospel is summarized.

There is salvation in a nutshell.
It must be received or believed (vs.2), but not in vain, that is with emptiness. There it is speaking of a genuine belief. The grace is found in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that the Lord of glory, the Creator of heaven and earth would come from the glories of heaven to die for such a sinner as I. That is grace!

Think that your view more "mystical" than mine, as it does not allow for totallity of the "salvation process" makes the Gospel almost like a sacrament of grace!

 

[DHK]

Think that your view more "mystical" than mine, as it does not allow for totallity of the "salvation process" makes the Gospel almost like a sacrament of grace!

Grace = God's riches at Christ's expense.
Grace = undeserved merit.

Yes, you talk about grace in mystical terms. God doing "a work of grace" in words that you cannot define.

Grace was done at the cross by Christ offering salvation that we don't deserve.
Grace is God working and drawing the sinner to himself by the operation of the Holy Spirit showing him that he is a sinner, convicting him of sin. The Holy Spirit's work is clearly defined in John 16. It is not mystical. It can be defined.

Another point. Salvation is an event, not a process. I can point to the hour, day, month, year that I called upon the name of the Lord and was saved. It was the first time that I ever heard the gospel. There I was convicted of my sin. There I believed the gospel. There I was saved. That was an event, not a process. If I am talking to an unsaved person and they describe salvation as a process I automatically conclude that they are not saved. "I have been saved all my life." "It's a process I am still going through." Garbage! Salvation is akin to marriage. We become part of the bride of Christ. If you are married and don't remember the events surrounding that time, I pity you and especially your wife. If you can't remember the events concerning the time of your salvation when you became a part of the bride of Christ, then I would question your salvation, if you were the one that I was counseling. It is an event not a process.

 

[preacher4truth]

We don't "produce" faith. Man is born with faith. Jesus verified this when he said Unless you have faith as a little child... I don't deny the words of Jesus that children have faith; that one's saving faith must be like the faith of a little child--full of confidence. The object of their faith was full confidence in their parents. The object of an unsaved person is full confidence in Christ who is able to save. God doesn't give them the faith. It is they that must believe with the faith that God gave them when they were born. I believe in the words of Christ.

Furthermore, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
In order for the object of that faith (Christ) to be known, it must be presented clearly. One must know whom he believes. Thus the word of God is absolutely necessary. We don't believe in blind faith. The more one listens to the word of God the more he will learn of Christ. Thus, the more confidence/faith he will be able to put in his word/promises, and in Christ himself.
It is Christ that said that little children have faith. Take your argument up with him.
Paul said that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
Without the gospel one cannot be saved. There is grace in the gospel, in the atoning work of Christ. Without that grace you cannot be saved.
I would call that mysticism. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sinfulness and show you that, you, a sinner, are exceeding sinful, and therefore in need of a Savior. That Savior is Jesus Christ who paid the penalty of your sin.
Why do you need some magical sacrament of grace in order that you may respond to the gospel. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Holy Spirit must convict you of your sin. And that is all.
The gospel (the atoning work of Christ) is the grace that Eph.2:8 speaks about.
Here is how one is saved:

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
--Paul came and preached the gospel

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
--The gospel, by which you are saved. Clearly it says the gospel saves.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
--In verses three and four, the gospel is summarized.

There is salvation in a nutshell.
It must be received or believed (vs.2), but not in vain, that is with emptiness. There it is speaking of a genuine belief. The grace is found in the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, that the Lord of glory, the Creator of heaven and earth would come from the glories of heaven to die for such a sinner as I. That is grace!

Although I disagree with a vast amount of your theology, I am glad to see you know what the Gospel is. To that we can agree. It is the power of God unto salvation.

Some people also hold to the part "and that He was seen" as also an necessary ingredient in the Gospel message too, as it is provided for in 1 Cor. 15:5.

Do you allow for this also?

 

[JesusFan]

Grace = God's riches at Christ's expense.
Grace = undeserved merit.

Yes, you talk about grace in mystical terms. God doing "a work of grace" in words that you cannot define.

Grace was done at the cross by Christ offering salvation that we don't deserve.
Grace is God working and drawing the sinner to himself by the operation of the Holy Spirit showing him that he is a sinner, convicting him of sin. The Holy Spirit's work is clearly defined in John 16. It is not mystical. It can be defined.

Another point. Salvation is an event, not a process. I can point to the hour, day, month, year that I called upon the name of the Lord and was saved. It was the first time that I ever heard the gospel. There I was convicted of my sin. There I believed the gospel. There I was saved. That was an event, not a process. If I am talking to an unsaved person and they describe salvation as a process I automatically conclude that they are not saved. "I have been saved all my life." "It's a process I am still going through." Garbage! Salvation is akin to marriage. We become part of the bride of Christ. If you are married and don't remember the events surrounding that time, I pity you and especially your wife. If you can't remember the events concerning the time of your salvation when you became a part of the bride of Christ, then I would question your salvation, if you were the one that I was counseling. It is an event not a process.

Salvation itself happens at a moment in time, but process can take extended period of time...

read Hal Lindsay and watch Billy Graham through my teen years, but did NOT accept jesus until College years, and the Lord had to opem my spiritual eyes to Him as being my saviour and Lord!

just saying that the Bible teaches us that we are not able to hear ansd responding to the Gospel until He 'works in us" to allow us to do that!

 

[DHK]

Some people also hold to the part "and that He was seen" as also an necessary ingredient in the Gospel message too, as it is provided for in 1 Cor. 15:5.

Do you allow for this also?

In Corinth there were some that denied the resurrection. The 15th chapter is a defense of the resurrection of Christ. The first four verses describe the gospel and how one is saved by the gospel and believing in it.
Then he begins giving witnesses of the resurrected Christ as proofs of the resurrection. Keep things in the context of the chapter. Since I was not alive at that time, and not part of that elite company of those 500 witnesses, no I was not one that actually saw Christ and neither were you. Why are you butchering the Bible so?

 

[DHK]

Salvation itself happens at a moment in time, but process can take extended period of time...

read Hal Lindsay and watch Billy Graham through my teen years, but did NOT accept jesus until College years, and the Lord had to opem my spiritual eyes to Him as being my saviour and Lord!

just saying that the Bible teaches us that we are not able to hear ansd responding to the Gospel until He 'works in us" to allow us to do that!

That is not a process. Then you, like many others, was in a state of rebellion against God and in unbelief until the time you trusted Christ. There is a clear example of resisting the Holy Spirit. It is not an example of a process of salvation but an example of resisting the Holy Spirit. You did not get saved until the day you trusted Christ. It is that simple.

 

[preacher4truth]

In Corinth there were some that denied the resurrection. The 15th chapter is a defense of the resurrection of Christ. The first four verses describe the gospel and how one is saved by the gospel and believing in it.
Then he begins giving witnesses of the resurrected Christ as proofs of the resurrection. Keep things in the context of the chapter. Since I was not alive at that time, and not part of that elite company of those 500 witnesses, no I was not one that actually saw Christ and neither were you. Why are you butchering the Bible so?

You're out of control here DHK. Butchering the Bible? Not at all. Tell me plainly how I've butchered the Bible here by quoting verse 5.

No need for that with this honest question I posed. Why are you always so caustic and angry?

I simply asked if you allow "and he was seen" to go along with the rest of it: (Death, Burial, Resurrection, within the Gospel).

 

[JesusFan]

That is not a process. Then you, like many others, was in a state of rebellion against God and in unbelief until the time you trusted Christ. There is a clear example of resisting the Holy Spirit. It is not an example of a process of salvation but an example of resisting the Holy Spirit. You did not get saved until the day you trusted Christ. It is that simple.

I was in a state of being dead to accepting jesus! I heard Gospel preached by Dr graham, tried rreading Bible a bit, but could not "put the pieces" together who jesus really was, and why I was a sinner in need to have Him save me!

So read and heard about jesus for a few years, just was saved at the moment/time when he openned me up to finally be able understand what Gospel really is and belived and was then saved!

 

[DHK]

You're out of control here DHK. Butchering the Bible? Not at all. Tell me plainly how I've butchered the Bible here by quoting verse 5.

Verse 5 starts another subject, another paragraph.

And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: (1 Corinthians 15:5)
--Cephas: Peter. How does Christ being seen of Peter and the 12 have anything to do with Paul's description of the gospel and the Corinthians necessity of being saved by it? It doesn't. When we hit verse 5 Paul has gone on to a different topic--the witnesses of the resurrected of Christ. That has nothing to do with us, so why even quote the verse, as if it does?

No need for that with this honest question I posed. Why are you always so caustic and angry?

I didn't know what you were getting at? Sarcasm perhaps. It sounded like a foolish question. I can't always tell.

I simply asked if you allow "and he was seen" to go along with the rest of it: (Death, Burial, Resurrection, within the Gospel).

True enough. But as I explained, how can the 12 apostles living 2,000 years ago have anything to do with us. We were not witnesses of the resurrected Christ as they were. Thus my bewilderment at your question.

 

[DHK]

I was in a state of being dead to accepting jesus! I heard Gospel preached by Dr graham, tried rreading Bible a bit, but could not "put the pieces" together who jesus really was, and why I was a sinner in need to have Him save me!

So read and heard about jesus for a few years, just was saved at the moment/time when he openned me up to finally be able understand what Gospel really is and belived and was then saved!

We had a man, an unsaved husband of a believing wife, come and sit under the preaching of the word for about 20 years and never get saved. (Then they moved--I don't know if he ever got saved after that). I can't say if God ever moved in his heart or not. I believe he was convicted many times. There were a few times he raised his hand for salvation, and yet never got saved. If he had gotten saved you would conclude that it took a long time for God to do a work of grace in his heart. But the fact is (as we know it) that he didn't get saved. So God "did a work of grace in his heart" and he didn't get saved. He resisted the Holy Spirit. He was brought under conviction. He heard the word over and over again for more than 20 years.

Salvation is an event. You are saved when you make that choice to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What happens before that time is irrelevant. Jesus Christ himself is very clear on this fact:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

Either you believe or you don't. There is no middle ground.

 

[JesusFan]

We had a man, an unsaved husband of a believing wife, come and sit under the preaching of the word for about 20 years and never get saved. (Then they moved--I don't know if he ever got saved after that). I can't say if God ever moved in his heart or not. I believe he was convicted many times. There were a few times he raised his hand for salvation, and yet never got saved. If he had gotten saved you would conclude that it took a long time for God to do a work of grace in his heart. But the fact is (as we know it) that he didn't get saved. So God "did a work of grace in his heart" and he didn't get saved. He resisted the Holy Spirit. He was brought under conviction. He heard the word over and over again for more than 20 years.

Salvation is an event. You are saved when you make that choice to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What happens before that time is irrelevant. Jesus Christ himself is very clear on this fact:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

Either you believe or you don't. There is no middle ground.

And in the ultimate sense, we are either saved by Will of God, Or Will of man, there is no middle ground!

 

[DHK]

And in the ultimate sense, we are either saved by Will of God, Or Will of man, there is no middle ground!

God's will is that all men get saved; but all men don't because of the depravity of their hearts and their rebellion against God's offer of the grace that he provided on the cross.

Those that are saved are saved in obedience to the command: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
They are still saved by grace, and through faith as is explained in Eph.2:8,9.
Salvation is all of God, but it must be received by faith.

 

[quantumfaith]

God's will is that all men get saved; but all men don't because of the depravity of their hearts and their rebellion against God's offer of the grace that he provided on the cross.

Those that are saved are saved in obedience to the command: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
They are still saved by grace, and through faith as is explained in Eph.2:8,9.
Salvation is all of God, but it must be received by faith.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

God's will is that all men get saved; but all men don't because of the depravity of their hearts and their rebellion against God's offer of the grace that he provided on the cross.

Those that are saved are saved in obedience to the command: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
They are still saved by grace, and through faith as is explained in Eph.2:8,9.
Salvation is all of God, but it must be received by faith.

again, faith is a Gift from the lord to us, in order to allow us to get saved, or it is intrinsic in us, so its back to either Will of God or of Man!

 

[DHK]

again, faith is a Gift from the lord to us, in order to allow us to get saved, or it is intrinsic in us, so its back to either Will of God or of Man!

There is no scripture anywhere to suggest that faith is a gift of God given to the unregenerate/unsaved man. Does God give spiritual gifts to unsaved people? Of course not!! Faith is also one of the fruits of the Spirit. Does he give the fruit of the Spirit to unsaved people? Faith is that body of doctrine which we are to contend for. Is that which he gives to the unsaved? No. In no way does God give faith to the unsaved.