What was accomplished at the cross?

[Primitive Baptist]

There is no bondage of the will, as Martin Luther believed, in anyone who desires to take of this water of life freely.

John wrote in the book of Revelation, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." [Revelation 22:17]

This is to a particular group of people, that is, those who hear and are athirst. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." [John 10:27, 28] The sheep are the only ones who will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." [John 5:25] When God breathes the Spirit of life into the dead, natural man, he shall live. There is no question about it.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />There is no bondage of the will, as Martin Luther believed, in anyone who desires to take of this water of life freely.

John wrote in the book of Revelation, "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." [Revelation 22:17]

This is to a particular group of people, that is, those who hear and are athirst. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." [John 10:27, 28] The sheep are the only ones who will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those that hear shall live. Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." [John 5:25] When God breathes the Spirit of life into the dead, natural man, he shall live. There is no question about it.</font>[/QUOTE]The passage you used in John says that sheep do hear the voice, but there is not an already defined number of sheep. It is just as possible that those who do hear the voice become sheep when joining with a faith relationship with God.

Considering that the Holy Spirit's job is to draw all men to him, it would seem that we have a paradox with your passage in John 5:25. Maybe to hear takes an active choice - it means to listen, similar to he that can hear, let him hear.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Considering that the Holy Spirit's job is to draw all men to him, it would seem that we have a paradox with your passage in John 5:25. Maybe to hear takes an active choice - it means to listen, similar to he that can hear, let him hear.

Interesting. Yes, there is what is called an antinomy in the Bible - God is absolutely sovereign and man is absolutely morally responsible. Charles Spurgeon was asked how he reconciled these two and his reply was that he didn't try to reconcile friends.

We must accept both teachings. They are difficult to understand, but so are the doctrines of the Trinity, the virgin birth, etc. As we are told in the Bible, we walk by faith and not by sight.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The passage you used in John says that sheep do hear the voice, but there is not an already defined number of sheep. It is just as possible that those who do hear the voice become sheep when joining with a faith relationship with God.

The Bible CLEARLY contradicts what you posted. Jesus said, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26) Jesus did not say that the Jews were not of His sheep because they did not believe, but that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep. One does not "become" a sheep. Believing manifests one to be a sheep, but it does not make one a sheep. There it is! Right there!

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The passage you used in John says that sheep do hear the voice, but there is not an already defined number of sheep. It is just as possible that those who do hear the voice become sheep when joining with a faith relationship with God.

The Bible CLEARLY contradicts what you posted. Jesus said, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26) Jesus did not say that the Jews were not of His sheep because they did not believe, but that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep. One does not "become" a sheep. Believing manifests one to be a sheep, but it does not make one a sheep. There it is! Right there!</font>[/QUOTE]Even John 10:26 doesn't say what comes first. Reading the following verse, we see how a person becomes a sheep - they "hear" the voice. Grammatically speaking, your statement of "Jesus did not say that the Jews were not of His sheep because they did not believe, but that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep" is unsupported, for one can just as easily say, "They didn't believe at first, so they don't believe now." It still doesn't show a causal relationship.

 

[russell55]

Jesus did not say that the Jews were not of His sheep because they did not believe, but that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep" is unsupported, for one can just as easily say, "They didn't believe at first, so they don't believe now." It still doesn't show a causal relationship.

The word "because" means exactly that the one thing causes the other, that the one thing is the logical precursor of the other. When Jesus says, "but you don't believe because you are not of the sheep," it is clear from the grammar that not believing is the logical consequence of not being one of the sheep. Not being one of the sheep is the cause of the unbelief.

Even your the little statement you use as an example shows a causal relationship, for the word "so" is also a "cause" word. If they didn't believe at first, so they don't believe now.", then not believing now is a result of not believing at first. (If you don't want to show a causal relationship, then use the conjunction "and" between the phrases. The word "so", just like the word because, makes one phrase the cause of the other.)

 

[russell55]

Reading the following verse, we see how a person becomes a sheep - they "hear" the voice.

Nah....Verse 27 doesn't have "cause" in the language. It simply says that "the sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me." No "cause" words (for, so, because, etc) here. This statement doesn't say anything about any of the phrases being the result or cause of any of the others. They may be, but the verse doesn't say so.

You are reading cause words into the text where there are none, and ignoring the cause words that are there.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jesus did not say that the Jews were not of His sheep because they did not believe, but that they did not believe because they were not of His sheep" is unsupported, for one can just as easily say, "They didn't believe at first, so they don't believe now." It still doesn't show a causal relationship.

The word "because" means exactly that the one thing causes the other, that the one thing is the logical precursor of the other. When Jesus says, "but you don't believe because you are not of the sheep," it is clear from the grammar that not believing is the logical consequence of not being one of the sheep. Not being one of the sheep is the cause of the unbelief.

Even your the little statement you use as an example shows a causal relationship, for the word "so" is also a "cause" word. If they didn't believe at first, so they don't believe now.", then not believing now is a result of not believing at first. (If you don't want to show a causal relationship, then use the conjunction "and" between the phrases. The word "so", just like the word because, makes one phrase the cause of the other.)</font>[/QUOTE]This would be true if the word "because" was the Greek word "hoti." It isn't - it's the word "gar."

The verse DOESN'T specify what it means to become a sheep. It doesn't say that the sheep were picked from an eternity past. It just says that the sheep now do not believe. As to the next verse, I would still maintain that akouo is an active word - (It's an active tense in the Greek). To become a sheep, you must "listen" first for the call, and then follow.

 

[russell55]

This would be true if the word "because" was the Greek word "hoti." It isn't - it's the word "gar."

The conjunction "hoti" used in this verse means because.

The verse DOESN'T specify what it means to become a sheep. It doesn't say that the sheep were picked from an eternity past.

Didn't say it did....doesn't address the issue.

It just says that the sheep now do not believe.

No, it says they are not sheep, and as a result of not being sheep, they do not believe. There are three types of animals in this passage--unsheep, sheep, and lost sheep (sheep not yet of the fold). The animals in this verse are not "lost sheep" but "unsheep".

As to the next verse, I would still maintain that akouo is an active word - (It's an active tense in the Greek). To become a sheep, you must "listen" first for the call, and then follow.

I agree that the verb is active. But all that the text says it that the sheep will actively listen to the call and then follow. You are adding something into the text to make active listening the cause of being a sheep, and adding something to the text that is contradictory to the verse before it.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
The conjunction "hoti" used in this verse means because.

Aha! There is no "hoti" in this verse! That's the problem. all' humeis ou pisteuete ou gar este ek ton probaton ton emon keithos eipon umin.

No, it says they are not sheep, and as a result of not being sheep, they do not believe. There are three types of animals in this passage--unsheep, sheep, and lost sheep (sheep not yet of the fold). The animals in this verse are not "lost sheep" but "unsheep".

Where do you see "lost sheep" in this passage? Jesus says that the Jews aren't his sheep. His sheep are the ones who hear and follow.

I agree that the verb is active. But all that the text says it that the sheep will actively listen to the call and then follow. You are adding something into the text to make active listening the cause of being a sheep, and adding something to the text that is contradictory to the verse before it.

I'm not contradicting anything at all. This sentence is broken up in English, but doesn't seem to be in the Greek - he just continues by saying, "the sheep that belong to me my voice will hear" (a literal translation). In other words, you're not my sheep because you're not hearing my voice!

SEC

 

[russell55]

Aha! There is no "hoti" in this verse!

Well, in all my texts there is. Mine read: all' humeis ou pisteuete hoti ou este ek ton probaton ton emon.

Your reading must be a variant of the text, but I couldn't find it listed.

Where do you see "lost sheep" in this passage?

I was using that term to refer the sheep in verse 16 who are not (yet) of this fold.

I'm not contradicting anything at all. This sentence is broken up in English, but doesn't seem to be in the Greek - he just continues by saying, "the sheep that belong to me my voice will hear" (a literal translation). In other words, you're not my sheep because you're not hearing my voice!

Okay, I have no arguments with your translation. But "the sheep that belong to me my voice will hear" simply states that His sheep will listen to His voice. It doesn't make a causal statement whatsoever. To say it means "you're not my sheep because you don't hear my voice" is adding a causal idea to the text.

And it is adding a causal idea that is contradictory to the one causal statement that is actually in the text, the one in verse 26.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:

Your reading must be a variant of the text, but I couldn't find it listed.

How bizarre! I looked up my trusty Greek NT by Metzger and pals and there it was - "hoti". Look at the greek on blueletter.com (It's the one I use when I'm at work). It's got "gar." I've never seen them make a mistake like that. I offer my humble apologies!

Where do you see "lost sheep" in this passage?

I was using that term to refer the sheep in verse 16 who are not (yet) of this fold.

Are you not reading into the text by assuming they're just lost? He speaks of sheep who are of another sheep pen. That is generally assumed to be the Gentile world, but he's not specifying them as "lost sheep."

Okay, I have no arguments with your translation. But "the sheep that belong to me my voice will hear" simply states that His sheep will listen to His voice. It doesn't make a causal statement whatsoever. To say it means "you're not my sheep because you don't hear my voice" is adding a causal idea to the text.

But it's not NOT making one either - that's the point. The sheep DO do two important actions. They hear and they follow. It's a chicken and the egg proposition - it's impossible to tell which comes first. I read it as a person must hear and follow to become a sheep. You see it as sheep (or the elect, I assume) has no choice but to hear and follow.

And it is adding a causal idea that is contradictory to the one causal statement that is actually in the text, the one in verse 26.[/QB]

Still a chicken-egg proposition. People don't follow because they're not sheep. People don't listen and so they're not sheep... and the reason they don't follow is because they're not sheep... The Jews weren't even listening to what Christ had to say. If verse 17 says that sheep listen and then believe - what if they just weren't listening? (verse 25)

 

[Primitive Baptist]

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." [John 10:26]

Christ's sheep hear His voice, and the goats do not. Christ will separate the two at the end of the world. Belief doesn't make one a sheep but manifests one to be a sheep. Sheep are sheep whether they have yet been born again or not. Jesus had sheep of another fold, Gentiles, who had not yet heard the gospel. In fact, there were sheep before Christ ever came to earth.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd." [John 10:16]

"All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them." [John 10:28]

 

[russell55]

How bizarre! I looked up my trusty Greek NT by Metzger and pals and there it was - "hoti". Look at the greek on blueletter.com (It's the one I use when I'm at work). It's got "gar." I've never seen them make a mistake like that. I offer my humble apologies!

I didn't know that site existed. I really like it....even though they got that verse wrong.

 

[KayDee]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson

How bizarre! I looked up my trusty Greek NT by Metzger and pals and there it was - "hoti". Look at the greek on blueletter.com (It's the one I use when I'm at work). It's got "gar." I've never seen them make a mistake like that. I offer my humble apologies!

Originally posted by Russell55

I didn't know that site existed. I really like it....even though they got that verse wrong.

When I was looking these words up, I found the Textus Receptus uses gar while the Alexandrian text uses hoti.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26)

In His Grace
KayDee