OK, I'm provoked.
I know only what the Bible says. And the Bible is clear that S & G were not destroyed because of homosexuality.
The verse in Jude says that THOSE WHO PRACTICE FORNICATION AND BEASTIALITY will suffer vengeance like S & G. It DOES NOT say that fornication & beastiality were the causes of their destruction.
I beg to differ.
Jude is written concerning a certain class of people who have "crept in unawares" defined in verse 4 and then makes some comparisons, one of them being the destruction of the citizens of Sodom and Gomorrha.
Jude 1
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into
lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
These in actuality are denying the Lord by turning the grace of God into
lasciviousness:
766 lasciviousness : aselgeia {as-elg'-i-a}
• 1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence
Yes pride, yes arrogance and insolence but yes also unbridled lust and licentiousness.
Let me repeat, the citizens of Sodom were given over to "porneia" in an all-out way because Jude uses the word "exporneuo".
"porneia" includes homosexuality but is not limited to it.
4202 porneia {por-ni'-ah}
• 1) illicit sexual intercourse 1a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc. 1b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
Second time around: The Canaanite religion(s) included the practice of every perversion known to man including but not limited to homosexuality.
True, the society was not exclusively homosexual but anything-and-everything sexual.
They had no preference, this is why Jude uses the word "ekporneuo" They were given over to "porneuo" as a way of life.
Genesis 19
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may
know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren,
do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not
known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
The Lord sent the angels down to see the iniquity of Sodom and here the angels had proof positive with the desire of the citizens of Sodom..
Genesis 19
15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.
16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.
Jude reminds the reader that there was a mixed multitude which came out of Egypt and He destroyed them who came along for the ride but did not believe.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Angels also
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are set forth as an example. An example of what and for what?
For practicing the lasciviousness of verse Jude 1:4 they suffered the vengeance of eternal fire.
766 lasciviousness : aselgeia {as-elg'-i-a}
• 1) unbridled lust, excess, licentiousness, lasciviousness, wantonness, outrageousness, shamelessness, insolence
Yes pride, yes arrogance and insolence but yes also unbridled lust and licentiousness.
Nothing has changed:
We are not condemned for our sin.
We are condemned when our sin is revealed and we hate the revelation and still love our sin.
John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
I've said my piece again. I'm done again (unless re-provoked).
HankD
[ May 19, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
