What will be the cause of the great tribulation?

[Dave G]

'The Great Tribulation' is done already, ancient history:

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

Read Matthew 24, Kentucky.
It starts here:

" And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:14 ). <------ Has this happened yet?

" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" ( Matthew 24:15 ) <---- Next step.

" for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened." ( Matthew 24:21-22 ). <----- Next step.

" For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." ( Matthew 24:27-31 ). <---- Last step.

Has any of this happened yet?

 

[kyredneck]

" And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:14 ). <------ Has this happened yet?

Yep. Fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

Lol, it was actually fulfilled at Pentecost, 'the gospel bomb':

5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born? Acts 2


Imagine this:
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

 

[kyredneck]

" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand" ( Matthew 24:15 ) <---- Next step.

Yep. Read, and understand:
When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

 

[kyredneck]

Has any of this happened yet?

Yep. It all has.

Do you for real believe that the sun will literally be darkened and the moon will literally stop shining and the stars will literally fall from heaven?

 

[Dave G]

Yep. Fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

In all the world?
It's still going forth, and God's elect are still being called.

Do you know that there are places and people groups yet in the world that have not had the Bible published in their languages, and there are yet remote tribes in far-flung corners that have not heard the Gospel preached?

Admittedly, they are few, but there are some.

Yep. Read, and understand:

I have a Bible, Kentucky.
Thanks for the link, though.

Do you for real believe that the sun will literally be darkened and the moon will literally stop shining and the stars will literally fall from heaven?

Yes...
Except for the stars literally falling, which are meteors.

 

[Oseas3]

Let me to share with you both in some points.

In all the world? It's still going forth, and God's elect are still being called.

We must remember that the days will be shortened. Matt.24:v.22 - JESUS said: Except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What does the Spirit of Christ meant in this prophecy: the days will be shortened? In fact, God has the power to shorten the days or to prolong them according to his will.

In my understanding, Satan may be intending to establish his kingdom ad eternum, that is the fifth and last kingdom as it was prophesied-Daniel 2: v.41-43, but God will not allow that to happen, and He previously established that Satan's right arm- the Beast of the Sea-the Gentile Beast-to which Satan will give his throne, his Power and Authority, this Beast cannot rule beyond 42 months or 1260 days-Rev.13: v.5.

If God had not fixed this period by the power of His Word - the Word is God - how much longer would the Beast of sea rule the kingdom of Antichrist? Impossible to know how much, do you agree? For me this is an example of how God works to shorten the days of our greatest enemy-Satan- and his allies, and this will be made for the love of his elects, remembering that the Beast of sea will make war against the saints of the Lord-Rev.13: v .7.

As for the abomination of desolation, God set it at 1290 days, no more, no more, if not for how long would the desolate Abomination last? Impossible to know, the main point, the focus, is that AD will not exceed 1290 days as determined by the Most High God-Daniel 12:v.11. What will happen is an interval, a gap, of 45 more days after the end of AD, and the last day of the Devil's world will be the day 1335. Here is the end of all things, and the Kingdom of God is established. Daniel 2:v.44-45. Aleluiaaaa!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Why there will be great tribulation? What will be the cause or origin of the appearance of the great tribulation?
The answer is in the Word of God, human opinions in accord the spirit of man which is in him is good for nothing.

The answer of the question is in Daniel 12:v.1 - 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: ...

It is Michael, the same that was in Sodom, who is with his sharp Sword-God's Word- to pour severe plagues upon the nations ruled by men guided by the spirit of Devil, and they have already started in accord the Word of God.

There will be severe punishments, even against powerful nations- Micah 4:v.3-, yeah, only and only punishments, consequently there will be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever will be.

Be ready. The days will be shortened because there is a deadline to destroy the Devil's world (Revelation 11: v.18) and to close the Dispensation of Grace. He that will endure unto the end, the same will be saved.

Other great happening is determined for this present time. There will be resurrection in this present time, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The cause of the great tribulation will be the removal of the Holy Spirit, the Restrainer, from earth.

[2Th 2:3-7 ESV] 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

 

[kyredneck]

In all the world?

Yes. When the Holy Spirit is satisfied to plainly state it you should believe it:

...Did they not hear? Yea...Their sound went out into all the earth... their words unto the ends of the world.

...the truth of the gospel,..is also in all the world ...

...the gospel ... which was preached in all creation under heaven...

...gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ...is made known unto all the nations...

Christ was speaking of this world, the Old Covenant arrangement, when He made the prophecy:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.

It was "Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven" and their network of synagogues throughout the known world that served as a conduit for the incredibly fast spread of the gospel.

I have a Bible, Kentucky.
Thanks for the link, though.

I'm not convinced you've read and comprehended it by comparing scripture with scripture. Here, I'll walk you through it:

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mt 24

14 But when ye see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not (let him that readeth understand), then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mk 13

20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. Lk 21

Yes...
Except for the stars literally falling, which are meteors

So, you get to cherry pick the prophecies that are literal and those that are symbolic or hyperbole? Is there a method that you use or is it done by an intuition, or something?

 

[Dave G]

So, you get to cherry pick the prophecies that are literal and those that are symbolic or hyperbole? Is there a method that you use or is it done by an intuition, or something?

With respect,
Is there a method that you use to determine how the Bible describes salvation being accomplished, or do you read the Scriptures and understand it for yourself by the words on the page?

With that "method" in mind,
Do you see each event of Matthew 24 taking place sequentially, one after the other, or are there gaps?
For example, when I read Matthew 24 and Mark 13, I see each and every event, beginning with the Gospel being preached in all the world for a witness to all nations.
After that happens, the end comes.

So, if it has been preached in all the world, why is the end not upon us?

Secondly, I don't remember seeing or hearing about Anti-Christ ( the Beast of Revelation ) going in and sitting down in the temple of God at Jerusalem, and declaring himself to be God and then having his false prophet causing everyone to get a mark either in their hand or in their forehead.
Have you seen that yet?
I have not, and I don't recall hearing about it in any history classes either, because believers are still here, people are still believing the Gospel when it's preached and its been a fair bit longer than 42 months since 70 A.D.

But when you do see a man who declares himself to be Jesus Christ enter the temple in Jerusalem, get ready...

There will be 42 months of the worst plagues, famines, hail, and everything described in Revelation that will happen, and it will be very bad.
Immediately after that, God shall send His angels to gather His elect from the 4 corners of the world, and they shall meet Him in the air as He is descending with a shout and the voice of the archangel.

I think you know the rest.

I don't "get to pick and choose", Kentucky...
I simply pick it up, read it, and decide whether or not the words mean what they say.

For example, I believe in a literal 1,000 year period when Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem, and then will come the Judgement.
Why?
Because that's what Revelation says...that we will rule and reign with Him 1,000 years.



May God bless you sir.

 

[Oseas3]

The cause of the great tribulation will be the removal of the Holy Spirit, the Restrainer, from earth.

[2Th 2:3-7 ESV] 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

In fact , if we meditate more deeply, we will see that the cause of the GT is not only the removal of the Holy Spirit from earth specifically, but it is actually one more event among others events that will happen in the terrible week that is the last week-Daniel 9:v.27. By the way, it will happen in this new decade that is starting. But first, as JESUS said, the Holy Spirit comes, and he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ. The fulness of Gentiles arrived.

The Holy Spirit will not speak of himself, but whatsoever he hears, he speaks: and he shows things to come.

May our LORD God bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

 

[kyredneck]

With respect,

Thank you. The reason I am responding to you and not the others is.... I respect your apparent humility towards the scriptures.

Is there a method that you use to determine how the Bible describes salvation

Well, we're not really discussing salvation on this thread, it's eschatology that's the topic.

My 'method' is to pay close attention to what is said. For instance we have 'trips' (3 witnesses, Matthew, Mark, Luke) within the Olivet Discourse that should never be ignored or explained away:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

Let's pause it right here and deal with this clear 'time frame' that we're given. All the things Christ told of in His Olivet Discourse were to occur before that generation passed away. That's the basis/method I go from. What basis/method do you use to dispute the meaning of Christ's words?

 

[Oseas3]

" And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." ( Matthew 24:14 ). <------ Has this happened yet?

Yep. Fulfilled before the NT was even completed. Before THAT GENERATION had passed away:

Remember: JESUS said: ...
Matthew 10:v.23KJV - ... for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 10:v.23CEV - I promise you that before you have gone to all the towns of Israel, the Son of Man will come.

Matthew 10:v.23NIV - Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

... and the bridegroom is at door exclusively to receive the God's people, those which is ready to meet him to the marriage: and the door will be shut, as for example, such as was shut the door of the Ark, and the people did not perceive it. Remember: lamp and oil is indispensable.

.

 

[Dave G]

Let's pause it right here and deal with this clear 'time frame' that we're given. All the things Christ told of in His Olivet Discourse were to occur before that generation passed away. That's the basis/method I go from. What basis/method do you use to dispute the meaning of Christ's words?

The basic method I use, is that I understand "this generation" to be the one that exists at the time of His coming.
Let's start at verse 3:

" And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" ( Matthew 24:3 ).

He then develops what those signs will be, at the end of the world ( this world system and its ways ).
See Matthew 24:5-31.
Then He says this:

" Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." ( Matthew 24:32-35 ).

Here's what I see when I read it:

32) He tells them about the parable of the fig tree.
Parables are designed to hide truths, but in this one, it's basically explained by Him.

He compares the branches and leaves to the signs of His coming...
And says in verse 33 that they also, when they shall see ALL these things come to pass, that the time is near, even at the doors.
"They" = "Us"
He's speaking to His disciples there, but we are His disciples as well, so we're included, Kentucky.

But what are those things?
Everything listed in the verses above, from Matthew 24:5-31, including the abomination of desolation, the plagues, etc.

Therefore, the tribulation will have saints in it.
Some will give their lives, some will not.
Those that are alive and remain shall meet Him in the clouds, after the dead in Christ rise first.



We are in the last days, my friend.
But there's someone that's left to come on the scene, and he's not Jesus Christ.
There's still a few pieces left that have to fall into place, and it's beginning to get like it was in the days of Noah...

But it's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Oseas3]

" And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" ( Matthew 24:3 ).

He then develops what those signs will be, at the end of the world ( this world system and its ways ).
See Matthew 24:5-31

Yes, Matthew 24 is about the end of this world (and the process has already started with the pestilence that is casting down the world of Devil with all his structures and systems), and is also about the signs of JESUS coming. Bay the way, JESUS said: verse 25 - Behold, I have told you before.

 

[Oseas3]

I never thought how easy would be to God destroy the world of Devil with all its strong and gigantic systems and structures, starting by an invisible Coronavirus(COVID-19). More punishments are coming in accord the righteous Judgments of God.

YEAH, THE CARNAL ISRAEL, THAT IS THE DRY LAND, AND SPIRITUALLY SODOM AND EGYPT, WILL BE DISSOLVED,AND BOTH THE OLD TESTAMENT AND NEW TESTAMENT WILL ALSO BE DISSOLVED-2Peter 3.

After these events, the Kingdom of God will be established here. Revelation 11:v.15 and 18 among others.
The fullness of the Gentiles has arrived, and the two Covenants that God designed and implanted on Earth, the Old and New Testaments, will both be DISSOLVED in the short term, and CARNAL Israel will also be DISSOLVED and will no longer be, forever, it will exist no more, never more.

Prophecies will be annihilated, tongues will cease, salvation for the peoples will no longer "rain" for ever. It's done. Through the MOUTH of my Lord JESUS, He declares blessed those who are at His right hand-Matt.24:v.34, and CURSED, FOREVER, ALL THOSE WHO ARE AT HIS LEFT HAND.Matt.24:v.41

 

[Wesley Briggman]

In fact , if we meditate more deeply, we will see that the cause of the GT is not only the removal of the Holy Spirit from earth specifically, but it is actually one more event among others events that will happen in the terrible week that is the last week-Daniel 9:v.27. By the way, it will happen in this new decade that is starting. But first, as JESUS said, the Holy Spirit comes, and he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ. The fulness of Gentiles arrived.

The Holy Spirit will not speak of himself, but whatsoever he hears, he speaks: and he shows things to come.

May our LORD God bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen

I do not have a clear understanding of your statement. Perhaps some scripture references would be of benefit to me.
Do you believe the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, descended after Christ returned to heaven?

 

[Oseas3]

I do not have a clear understanding of your statement. Perhaps some scripture references would be of benefit to me.
Do you believe the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, descended after Christ returned to heaven?

Anwering your question, dear brother, I start with John 16:v.28 - JESUS said: I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

John 15:v.26. JESUS said: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me.

1John 5:v.7 - There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit (who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a Person): and these three are One.

John 16:v.5 and 7-15 - JESUS said:
5 But now I go my way to him that sent me;
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself (the Person of the Holy Spirit has not any message of his own in particular or private); but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

That said, I would like to add the follow comment:
It is easy to speak about the Person of JESUS, but it is very hard to speak of the Holy Spirit as a Person. The Person of JESUS is known of the angels, and of the men, and even of the demons. But the Person of the Holy Spirit is a mystery, remembering what said John: There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One. To me, I think that the Holy Spirit is not known as a Person, but only as a Ghost, as is written in English language in 1John 5:v.7, unfortunatelly.

If we study more deeply the Person of the Holy Spirit, by the Holy Scripture, of course, we can find some interesting points:

See, JESUS is LORD, the Holy Spirit is lord too (small letter), JESUS is the LORD of the lords, the Holy Spirit included.

In Isaiah 63:v.10 he appears as a warrior. He is a man of war;

Acts 7:v.30-35 describe when he appeared to Moses by the name of God, being him he third in the celestial hierarchy, as is written in Exodus 3:v.6;

As a warrior, he appeared also to Joshua as the Prince of the host of Lord: Joshua 5:v.13:15;

In Psalms 45:v.1-5 he appears as a brave warrior, the mighty, in the prophetic description of the union between Christ and his Church;

In Psalms 7:v.12 he appears as Judge with a Sword. He works also with a bow, and with his arrows he fight against the persecutors. Psalms 7:v.6-13

Jumping from the Old to the New Testament, he appears as a warrior with his bow in Rev.6:v.2

In Revelation 19:v.11-21 about the victory against the Beast and against the False Prophet, he appears making Judgment and War in the name of the KING of the kings(kings made by JESUS), and LORD of the lords.

And so on.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be Glory and Majesty, Dominion and Power, both now and ever. Amen.


PS -
I have seen that many people confound themselves between the person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit, maybe because JESUS and the Holy Spirit are One.
Many times, where Scriptures speaks or refers to the Holy Spirit, they interpretam as whether Scriptures are speaking of JESUS, and happens vice-versa also, making a terrible confusion, unfortunatelly.

 

[Sai]

The basic method I use, is that I understand "this generation" to be the one that exists at the time of His coming.
Let's start at verse 3:

" And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" ( Matthew 24:3 ).

He then develops what those signs will be, at the end of the world ( this world system and its ways ).
See Matthew 24:5-31.
Then He says this:

" Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:
33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." ( Matthew 24:32-35 ).

Here's what I see when I read it:

32) He tells them about the parable of the fig tree.
Parables are designed to hide truths, but in this one, it's basically explained by Him.

He compares the branches and leaves to the signs of His coming...
And says in verse 33 that they also, when they shall see ALL these things come to pass, that the time is near, even at the doors.
"They" = "Us"
He's speaking to His disciples there, but we are His disciples as well, so we're included, Kentucky.

But what are those things?
Everything listed in the verses above, from Matthew 24:5-31, including the abomination of desolation, the plagues, etc.

Therefore, the tribulation will have saints in it.
Some will give their lives, some will not.
Those that are alive and remain shall meet Him in the clouds, after the dead in Christ rise first.



We are in the last days, my friend.
But there's someone that's left to come on the scene, and he's not Jesus Christ.
There's still a few pieces left that have to fall into place, and it's beginning to get like it was in the days of Noah...

But it's going to get worse before it gets better.

The nearest antecedent to the fig tree was what? The abomination of desolation. Interpretation: When the Antichrist desecrates the temple the second coming will happen very soon - “nigh”. The time from the blossom to the harvest measured by the example of a fig tree means that when those who are alive during the tribulation see the Antichrist set himself as God in the Jewish temple, the second coming will come exactly 3 and a half years later (the day will be known).

 

[Oseas3]

The nearest antecedent to the fig tree was what? The abomination of desolation.
...when those who are alive during the tribulation see the Antichrist set himself as God in the Jewish temple, the second coming will come exactly 3 and a half years later (the day will be known).

Brother, supposing that the Abomination of Desolation had started today, exactly on this day, August 5, 2020, when would the 1290-day period of Abomination of Desolation end?

 

[Marooncat79]

What will be the cause or origin of the appearance of the great tribulation?

God