What will happen if "Freewillers" continue their message?

[annsni]

The point is to suppose that if Calvinism is false that the ramifications could be quite sever. Some Calvinistic believers throughout history have used their understanding of soteriology as an excuse not to evangelize. Some have allowed their view to turn "hyper" and prevent their involvement in missions. Granted, that is not what true "Calvinism" teaches, but that doesn't negate this historical fact about what SOME believers have done.

Additionally, supposing Calvinism is false, think of all the time, energy, effort and Christian resources wasted on the proclamation of its claims by its adherents and the rebuttal of those claims by its opponents. If "Arminianism" is false, no such eternal effect can be claimed...after all we are just doing as we are decreed to do, right? :saint:

But just because there are extremists, why do you paint everyone with the same brush? I also know those believers who are just stinking lazy and too embarrassed to tell others about Christ.

As for your second point, if those who disagree with the doctrine of grace would just shut up, then there would have to be no time spent rebutting them.

 

[annsni]

Actually, the same argument cannot be applied to my position. If we suppose that I am wrong and Calvinism is correct, then the same number of elect will be saved and I am only an Arminian because God has so decreed it to be so.



And if Calvinism is false, which I believe it is, this would be time well spent as compared to the time many spend watching sports, hunting or whatever. Whereas, if Calvinism is correct, then I'm only doing what God decreed for me to do.

So your stance is that if Calvinism is correct, then God's commands are a lie? We are commanded to preach the Gospel to all nations, make disciples. That's the same no matter what.

 

[Skandelon]

But just because there are extremists, why do you paint everyone with the same brush?

I emboldened the word "SOME" so as to avoid this very accusation and even went out of my way to clarify this was not the teaching of true Calvinism. (sometimes you just can't please everyone)

I also know those believers who are just stinking lazy and too embarrassed to tell others about Christ.

As do I, but that has nothing to do with the supposition of this thread.

As for your second point, if those who disagree with the doctrine of grace would just shut up, then there would have to be no time spent rebutting them.

And then you would continue to propagate your interpretation without rebuttal thus convincing more uninformed believers to adopt a false doctrine. I'd rather all believers be informed of both sides of the debate so as to make an informed choice.

 

[pinoybaptist]

You mean like Rahab, Ruth, etc.?

well, Rahab, Ruth, etc., do not make the tribe, do they ? My point was that only those who are God's people can make and are commanded to make choices.

 

[Skandelon]

So your stance is that if Calvinism is correct, then God's commands are a lie?

Uh? I don't remember saying that. If Calvinism is correct, then Calvinism's claims are true, period. Calvinism doesn't claim God's commands are lies, so I'm not sure why you would say this.

We are commanded to preach the Gospel to all nations, make disciples. That's the same no matter what.

It's not the same. If we are supposing Calvinism is false (as the OP stated), then the reason we preach is to follow his command so as to persuade as many as possible, which would have been hindered or at very least slowed down by the distraction of Calvinism's false teachings.

 

[annsni]

And then you would continue to propagate your interpretation without rebuttal thus convincing more uninformed believers to adopt a false doctrine. I'd rather all believers be informed of both sides of the debate so as to make an informed choice.

OK - So you want Calvinists to shut up about the doctrine of grace and to not rebut the false teaching of Arminianism? Interesting.

Uh? I don't remember saying that. If Calvinism is correct, then Calvinism's claims are true, period. Calvinism doesn't claim God's commands are lies, so I'm not sure why you would say this.

But you're saying that if Calvinism is true, everyone has wasted their time preaching the Gospel and instead should be sitting on our butts. Right?

It's not the same. If we are supposing Calvinism is false (as the OP stated), then the reason we preach is to follow his command so as to persuade as many as possible, which would have been hindered or at very least slowed down by the distraction of Calvinism's false teachings.

And if we're supposing that Arminianism is false, the reason we preach is because we're obeying God's Word instead of "persuade as many as possible". I'm not persuading anyone. God is. If it's up to me, then God could very well punish me for not persuading everyone in your view.

 

[psalms109:31]

message

{face-palm}

oy...

Mark 6:34
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.

What ever happen to compassion of Christ. Since the Bible does teach that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and also God has also included those who have heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Telling men half the truth isn't comming to the knowledge of the truth.

I don't care about winner or losing but concerned of men who are looking for God to love them just as they are. That He does love the world that whosoever believes in Jesus will be not be condemned but have eternal life and God isn't lying to them.

We teach saved by grace because the wages of our sin is death not belief or faith. We are called to believe, but we also know that we are saved by grace because we didn't pay our debt by our faith but our faith teaches Jesus did.

I'm not going to say that calvinist are wrong but they have more to learn. Just like any man-made doctrine it is incomplete the only complete work of God is found in every word that comes from the mouth of God.

 

[Skandelon]

OK - So you want Calvinists to shut up about the doctrine of grace and to not rebut the false teaching of Arminianism? Interesting.

Ann, please pay attention to what I've said. I was supposing if Calvinism was correct and if Arminianism was correct. If Calvinism is correct, our "false teaching" is not going to keep any of the elect from heaven. In fact, if what many Calvinist teach is true, then I'm an Arminian because God ordained it to be and I really didn't have much say in the matter. (but that is another debate)

But you're saying that if Calvinism is true, everyone has wasted their time preaching the Gospel and instead should be sitting on our butts. Right?

I never said that, or even implied it. I know that Calvinists evangelize because they are commanded to do so. Remember, I was one of you, believe it or not. Even if Calvinism is false, I want Calvinists evangelizing, just like you want Arminians to evangelize.

And if we're supposing that Arminianism is false, the reason we preach is because we're obeying God's Word instead of "persuade as many as possible". I'm not persuading anyone. God is. If it's up to me, then God could very well punish me for not persuading everyone in your view.

Well, you can tell Paul that because he said that he was attempting to persuade men. I think most Calvinists acknowledge the use of "persuasive" means, so you may not want to go that route.

 

[annsni]

Ann, please pay attention to what I've said. I was supposing if Calvinism was correct and if Arminianism was correct. If Calvinism is correct, our "false teaching" is not going to keep any of the elect from heaven. In fact, if what many Calvinist teach is true, then I'm an Arminian because God ordained it to be and I really didn't have much say in the matter. (but that is another debate)

So does God ordain that you lust? Does God ordain that you do not love your wife? Does God ordain that you get angry at the driver who cut you off? Does God ordain that you eat the extra donut?

I can see that whatever you were, you did not understand the doctrine of grace properly.

 

[Skandelon]

So does God ordain that you lust? Does God ordain that you do not love your wife? Does God ordain that you get angry at the driver who cut you off? Does God ordain that you eat the extra donut?

No, that is typically the position of those who hold to Calvinistic theology.

I can see that whatever you were, you did not understand the doctrine of grace properly.

And I can see that you are not aware of what most Calvinistic scholars believe.

The Westminster Confession of Faith:
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass

This is from John Piper's Desiring God website:
“[E]verything that exists—including evil—is ordained by an infinitely holy and all-wise God to make the glory of Christ shine more brightly. . . . Adam’s sin and the fall of the human race with him into sin and misery did not take God off guard and is part of his overarching plan to display the fullness of the glory of Jesus Christ.”

Need I go on?

 

[Robert Snow]

Personally, I don't understand those who say we have no free will. Mankind down through the centuries has proven that not to be true. We have the choice to make (as Joshua said in Joshua 24:15 "Choose you this day whom ye will serve----as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

That was a conscious and free choice--just as it was my choice when I chose to accept the Lord as my Saviour nearly 47 years ago. Others choose not to serve or accept Him. Lucifer had a free will when he chose to rebell against God and desire to be equal to Him as stated in Isaiah 14.

We are not robots, wind-up toys, or puppets on strings destined to do as we're made to do, to say what we're made to say, to walk as we're made to walk.

God through His foreknowledge knew who would and who would not accept Him and chose through that foreknowledge who He would and would not save. The "elect" are simply those who are saved--NOt those that God elected to save over others that He rejected. I am nothing special, and yet God saved me on May 18, 1963--not because I was worthy, but in spite of the fact that I was NOT worthy.

I believe you are one-hundered percent correct; however, the Calvinist will not hear it.

 

[Theopolis]

The "elect" are simply those who are saved--

That brings to my mind the following quote ....

"The gospel was not and is not a manisfestation of to which persons God wills to give eternal life, but of the sort of persons to whom he wills to give eternal life, namely believers in Christ." - Girolamo Zanchi - one of the earilest Reformers