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What would cause you to lose your salvation?

Rebel

Active Member
That is all of us, my friend.




So you can say without question you were saved as a child? And you have not considered whether, if that is true, your return to Christ is not simply Christ's preservation of one of His own, despite their wanderings?

You say you could have gone in a different direction, but would not our Heavenly Father be the Supreme example of what He commands of man? Can He not train you up in the way you should go, in nurture and admonition, that, when you are old...you would not depart from it?




So you have a burden you present to yourself: show how Scripture does not teach what some feel it does, which can be seen as simply a recognition of Scripture states in a pretty straightforward manner.

It's either that, or believe what you want to believe without being able to show why an opposing view is in error. That's where we test our beliefs, not just by embracing them, but defending them and examining other views in light of Scripture.





And many opt for a particular System because first, they reject the opposing view, secondly, because they dislike how those of other Systems behave, and third, because the opposing view makes the most heinous charge one can levy on another...you are wrong.

And nobody deals well with being told they are wrong.

The above statement can be found on just about any forum one goes to. The usual content of discussions are personal rather than doctrinal, and the tendency to exclude the weightier matters is the result.

So while you may have convinced yourself that the views you hold are the truth, the question is, are these your views, or simply views of others that happen to agree with what you believe? Can you present a Biblical Presentation in support and show a reasonable Basis of Belief that cannot be shown to have errors? Are you willing to recognize error in your own views, and be honest if someone points a conflict with that view?

I have asked a simple question in the other post, and I ask that you answer it. You say you have free will to choose, but I would suggest to you that you have never had free will, and that the freedom you have now in Christ brings about what might be viewed as even less free will.

In order to support your view you are going to have to show that God has first presented that in His Word. God remains consistent in His revelation to man, and unless we can harmonize every teaching our views will come under scrutiny and criticism. The big question is whether that criticism is valid or not.


God bless.

I would say I was saved while I was a child, and I have no doubt about that. I also have no doubt that I departed from that, and it could have been permanent. I believe our free will was weakened in the fall, not destroyed. I have pointed out scripture that supports what I believe. I know those who believe the opposite can point to scripture which they think supports their view. Those differences are an example of why there are denominations.

To decide which is true, I look at all of scripture, the early churches, what was believed for thousands of years, the nature and character of God as revealed in Jesus, and actual human experience and actions. Based on all of that, I conclude that a deterministic god is not the God of the Bible. I am sorry if that offends, but what else can I do but state my beliefs and conclusions when asked?

I have done so at other times, on other forums, and I have damned for it, and banned for it. But so be it. To quote Martin Luther: "Here I stand. I can do no other."
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The only other way one could do something to lose salvation was if they did something to gain it. Thankfully, by grace we are saved. (Eph. 2:8-9)

God's grace is like a well...you can fall into it but no one falls out of a well.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

I have a question for my Arminian brethren, according to these verses of scripture would God again leave the Salvation of carnal depraved sinners in their hands?... If so why did the remedy come before the sentence?... Brother Glen
 
It would not be an example of Hebrews 6:4-6.

You need to understand that the context is one of rebuke from a Jew to a Jew, and while the teaching certainly has application to Gentiles, we don't forsake the context of the passage to make this about born again believers losing their salvation.

Taken out of it's context...


Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


...vv.4-5 seem to speak of born again believers, which it does when the context is post-salvific, because these thing, most of them, anyway, are precisely what believers experience as the Holy Spirit ministers to them in their natural state.

But now ask yourself if these things cannot also be applied to those who hear the Gospel, fall under the Ministry of the Comforter, and reject Christ.

Read Hebrews 5:10-6:12, and we will discuss it. Understanding this passage has to kept within the framework of the Book, and it is one of the most debated passages in all of Scripture. So read it a few times, and then we will discuss it if you like.

For now, I am beginning to see an antagonism towards Eternal Security, so if you don't mind, I would like to pose to you the same question posed to the other member, who also feels that men have a choice, or, free will, if you will.

Here it is: did you have a choice to be righteous before you were saved?


God bless.

Nope, not against doctrine of Eternal Security here. I was just wondering whether eternal security applies to Christians who have turned agnostic, atheist, even Satanist.

During my college years, I was counseled and discipled by someone, definitely a Christian back then. Every evidence of the fruits of the Spirit was in him: prayer, love, patience...he led and taught bible studies, all the works, etc... Now, he is an agnostic, perhaps even an atheist of the non-militant type.

Now back to my question: Can a Christian fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God, become a hardcore Satanist, and still be saved?
 

Rebel

Active Member
Nope, not against doctrine of Eternal Security here. I was just wondering whether eternal security applies to Christians who have turned agnostic, atheist, even Satanist.

During my college years, I was counseled and discipled by someone, definitely a Christian back then. Every evidence of the fruits of the Spirit was in him: prayer, love, patience...he led and taught bible studies, all the works, etc... Now, he is an agnostic, perhaps even an atheist of the non-militant type.

Now back to my question: Can a Christian fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God, become a hardcore Satanist, and still be saved?

No. Unless that person repents and comes back to God.
 

salzer mtn

Well-Known Member
Nope, not against doctrine of Eternal Security here. I was just wondering whether eternal security applies to Christians who have turned agnostic, atheist, even Satanist.

During my college years, I was counseled and discipled by someone, definitely a Christian back then. Every evidence of the fruits of the Spirit was in him: prayer, love, patience...he led and taught bible studies, all the works, etc... Now, he is an agnostic, perhaps even an atheist of the non-militant type.

Now back to my question: Can a Christian fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God, become a hardcore Satanist, and still be saved?
If a person studies the parable of the 4 types of ground the good seed was sown on you will see there was but one good ground and it brought forth fruit. Some of the other grounds that were stony and grew briars had a showing for a little while then withered away. Many professed religionist follow the pattern of the college boy because they are taught a Christian is a gun-ho, get it done, get them saved, works, works, works person. Christianity is all external to them and nothing else. They run in their own strength and salvation was just a commitment from them from the very beginning.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Once again we have 5 pages of Cal/non-Cal debate not located in the Cal/non-Cal debate forum. What is the use of having rules, if those who rule believe in discretionary enforcement?

1) Cals believe in exhaustive determinism, God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, but God is not the author of sin. When God predestines us to sin, that does not make Him the author of the sin He predestined. Got it!!

2) Does choosing autonomously to trust in Christ automatically save that person? Or must God credit their faith as righteousness and place them spiritually in Christ?

3) Just as God can "harden" a person so they are unable to trust in Christ, i.e. Romans 11, could God protect a person's salvation by hardening their faith such that they are unable not to trust in Christ?
Is this not what scripture (1 Peter 1:3-5) teaches?

4) Cal/non-Cal debate never seems to go anywhere because neither side is able to modify the published view they have adopted. So even if one side makes a compelling argument from scripture, it will be rejected. At the end of the day, both sides believe the 400 years of theologians espousing their view could not be wrong.
 

Rebel

Active Member
Once again we have 5 pages of Cal/non-Cal debate not located in the Cal/non-Cal debate forum. What is the use of having rules, if those who rule believe in discretionary enforcement?

1) Cals believe in exhaustive determinism, God predestines whatsoever comes to pass, but God is not the author of sin. When God predestines us to sin, that does not make Him the author of the sin He predestined. Got it!!

2) Does choosing autonomously to trust in Christ automatically save that person? Or must God credit their faith as righteousness and place them spiritually in Christ?

3) Just as God can "harden" a person so they are unable to trust in Christ, i.e. Romans 11, could God protect a person's salvation by hardening their faith such that they are unable not to trust in Christ?
Is this not what scripture (1 Peter 1:3-5) teaches?

4) Cal/non-Cal debate never seems to go anywhere because neither side is able to modify the published view they have adopted. So even if one side makes a compelling argument from scripture, it will be rejected. At the end of the day, both sides believe the 400 years of theologians espousing their view could not be wrong.

You are correct in most everything you said, except the non-Cal view existed from the earliest ages of the church.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think pretty much every sect makes the claim that their view goes all the back to the Apostles. What I had in mind were the published views taking very different stances on salvation that occurred near the time of Calvin and Arminius.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Show me where in the first 15 centuries of the church the so-called "doctrines of grace" were held?

How about Jesus and the Apostles perhaps:thumbs:
jn6:37-44
Jn 10:26-30
jn17...the whole chapter
Acts 2

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts3;
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

These OT saints were cals also:wavey:
13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 

Rebel

Active Member
How about Jesus and the Apostles perhaps:thumbs:
jn6:37-44
Jn 10:26-30
jn17...the whole chapter
Acts 2

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts3;
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

These OT saints were cals also:wavey:
13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Sorry, I ain't gettin' it from what you posted. :)
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Only REBEL answered my question directly. I would want to hear from others. "Can a Christian fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God, become a hardcore Satanist, and still be saved?"

If you are asking "Can a person who is bought by the blood of the lamb fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God and become a hardcore Satanist?" I say no.

If you are asking "Can a 'Christian' … become a hardcore Satanist?" I say absolutely. Statistics tell us that 75% of the population in the US are Christians and I can guarantee that it is just a fraction of those actually belong to the Father.

If you are asking "Can a Christian fall away and still be saved?" I say yes. I have fallen away at times and I know each and every one of us have had times that we have fallen. But GOD is faithful even when we are not.
 

righteousdude2

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you are asking "Can a person who is bought by the blood of the lamb fall away, reject the gospel, forsake God and become a hardcore Satanist?" I say no.

If you are asking "Can a 'Christian' … become a hardcore Satanist?" I say absolutely. Statistics tell us that 75% of the population in the US are Christians and I can guarantee that it is just a fraction of those actually belong to the Father.

If you are asking "Can a Christian fall away and still be saved?" I say yes. I have fallen away at times and I know each and every one of us have had times that we have fallen. But GOD is faithful even when we are not.

:applause::applause::applause: WELL SAID!
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A Christian who becomes a Satanist has committed apostasy. So those who apostasize are saved? (Respectfully asking.)

Were they indwelt with the Holy Spirit and that's why you call them a "Christian"? If so, I do not believe they could become a Satanist. I couldn't become a Satanist any more than I could become black.
 
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