What would the following verse mean if

[Winman]

Winman, election is unconditional. That means not based on anything that man may or may not do. God chooses those whom He will. What is that to you or me? That is strictly the prerogative of God. Do you read well Winman, God chooses those whom He will and what is that to you or me? That is strictly the prerogative of God.

Where do the scriptures say election is unconditional? That is a man-made doctrine, you cannot find that in scripture. Yes, God can choose whosoever he likes, whether it is conditional or not.

And Scripture tells us:

Romans 8:29, 30
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Scripture states God, Winman, not I, not you, God!

Now Winman, foreknow does not mean that God knew who would believe. It is obvious that God knows all things and that includes those who believe and those who will not. So saying that God knows who is going to believe and chooses or elects them on that basis is foolish. That makes God subject to the whims of sinful man!

It does not, it makes God sovereign. If God determines the condition, then God is in control.

That is why I showed Judges 7, God told Gideon that whom he picked (God), they should fight with Gideon. In this case God chose the 300 men who lapped water like a dog.

Jud 7:4 And the LORD said unto Gideon, The people are yet too many; bring them down unto the water, and I will try them for thee there: and it shall be, that of whom I say unto thee, This shall go with thee, the same shall go with thee; and of whomsoever I say unto thee, This shall not go with thee, the same shall not go.

Gideon did not choose the 300, God did.

Now as to your story. The reason God whittled the number of men from 10,000 to 300 has nothing to do with the way they got a drink from the creek. God reduced the number of men so they could not boast: I did it! I did it. I whupped the Midianites but these other 299 helped a little. Rather they had to give God the Glory.

The same is true of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace and those who believe the Doctrines of Grace, they give all Glory to God.

You are correct that God chose only 300 so Israel could not boast. And the scriptures say God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith. He has chosen the foolish and despised to confound the wise and mighty.

1 Cor 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Jam 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

God has chosen the poor because generally speaking the poor are rich in faith. They look to God as their refuge, this is shown over and over in scriptures. God does this to confound the wise and mighty who trust in their riches or own wisdom.

Nowhere do the scriptures say election is unconditional, it doesn't even make sense. God doesn't choose people randomly. We are directly told in scripture who God chooses and why.

 

[kyredneck]

....Where is it stated in Mark 16:16 that the baptism is water baptism?

Where is it stated that 'saved' is intended in the eternal sense?:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72061

If anyone believes that it is, can you build a case from scripture to prove it?

 

[kyredneck]

Where do the scriptures say election is unconditional? That is a man-made doctrine, you cannot find that in scripture......

:laugh: (this is so basic to the truth I have to laugh)

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

 

[OldRegular]

Winman:

In your long post above you inadvertently posted Scripture that show why "election" is unconditional. You do refute your own arguments from time to time.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Winman please note Verse 29: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

You see those who deny the Doctrines of Grace,
1. those who deny the Inability of man,
2. those who deny Unconditional Election,
3. those who deny limited atonement,
4. those who deny Irresistible Grace [I call it unmerited Regeneration]

must get the Big I involved. But God says in verse 29 above: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Now consider the Scripture you selected in a broader context:

1 Corinthians 1:18-29
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Please note verses 23 &24 above:

23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The preaching of Christ crucified to those in the flesh is foolishness but to them which are called it is Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Them which are called [see Romans 8:29, 30 and Ephesians 1:3-6] obviously refers to the elect! But I leave it for your consideration!

 

[percho]

Where is it stated that 'saved' is intended in the eternal sense?:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=72061

If anyone believes that it is, can you build a case from scripture to prove it?

For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Without the gift all would be eternally condemned. However to me the key word in that passage is the word, "through." There is a line in a song, "saved to sin no more." Are we truly saved until we are, "saved to sin no more?" Does anyone living in this world not sin, even those who are, "saved?" Is, "saved to sin no more scriptural?" I believe it is, for I believe 1 John 3:9 means exactly what it says, KJV, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"Through,", what is the, "through"? Is it not, the baptism of the Christ, that is his obedience unto death even the death of the cross, the death appointed to the first man Adam, and his Father, The God giving the Christ life again from the dead? Called in Colossians 1:18 as being, the, "firstborn, from the dead.

"Through," is what took place between God the Father and His Son Jesus the Christ that wrought salvation for those to receive the wages of sin.

Whether this is what Mark 16:16 is about I am not sure, however I think so but I do believe it is what Matt. 20:23 is about Mark 10:39 for Van. Ye shall indeed.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, (conceived, begotten by the Holy Spirit from God the Father through Jesus his Son, "through," having the same meaning as above, he received first then given to us. And it is the earnest, until.) and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

BTW I am going to let God decide who is a, "believer," who is, "saved," and who is, "condemned."

 

[kyredneck]

......1 Corinthians 1:27-29
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Winman please note Verse 29: That no flesh should glory in his presence......

OR, that's a terrible point to break that passage off:

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The big 'I'. 'I' put myself in Christ Jesus because of MY choice, MY will, My faith. A man centered doctrine it is.

Winman believes that Winman put Winman in Christ Jesus; God didn't do it for Winman, Winman did!

 

[Iconoclast]

OR, that's a terrible point to break that passage off:

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:
31 that, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The big 'I'. 'I' put myself in Christ Jesus because of MY choice, MY will, My faith. A man centered doctrine it is.

Winman believes that Winman put Winman in Christ Jesus; God didn't do it for Winman, Winman did!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

kyredneck

I humbly stand admonished, especially when corrected by a brother in "exile" from Breathitt County, Kentucky!

 

[kyredneck]

For the wages of sin death; but the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Actually it's FREE gift:

For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Without the gift all would be eternally condemned. However to me the key word in that passage is the word, "through." There is a line in a song, "saved to sin no more." Are we truly saved until we are, "saved to sin no more?" Does anyone living in this world not sin, even those who are, "saved?" Is, "saved to sin no more scriptural?" I believe it is, for I believe 1 John 3:9 means exactly what it says, KJV, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I believe sin here is an attitude. In actuality I can't walk out of this room without sinning.

Even after all they had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (murmuring, idolatry, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to say:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8

Practically, no one is capable of living sinlessly. No one. Positionally, yes, but that's only due to God's faithfulness and not our ability.

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck

I humbly stand admonished, especially when corrected by a brother in "exile" from Breathitt County, Kentucky!

Heehee, I still love you brother (actually my immediate roots is Lee County, but them hillbilly kin of mine are spread all throughout them thar hills...).

 

[Winman]

:laugh: (this is so basic to the truth I have to laugh)

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy. Ro 9

I agree election is not according to works, it is according to faith. Faith is not a work. Faith is contrasted to works throughout the scriptures. This verse is making that same contrast, election is not according to works, but him that calleth. Those who answer the call and come in faith are chosen. Esau had no faith, he did not believe the promises given to his father Isaac. Jacob did believe the promises and persuaded Esau to sell his birthright to him.

Anyone can see that Jacob had faith in God's promises while Esau did not. Therefore Jacob was chosen.

 

[Yeshua1]

"of My sheep" and "My sheep" refers to two different groups, my sheep refers to those who belong to Jesus, and therefore are saved already, they are the sheep of His pasture. On the other hand, of My sheep refers to people who are open to the gospel, folks that can receive the gospel with joy. Therefore, people who are not "of My sheep" are not receptive to the gospel.

Next, but every time we see "baptized, baptism, etc in the text, we must discern whether the baptism in view is spiritual (i.e. being baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit) or physical(i.e. a water baptism done by men).

So I agree with Winman, Mark 16:16 appears to be referring to being baptized into Christ spiritually. So this parallels being set apart in Christ on the basis of God crediting our faith as righteousness, and being saved when we are put spiritually in Christ, thus who has believed according to God's assessment and who has been baptized into Christ (the sanctification through the Spirit) shall be saved.

It always gives me pause when a doctrinal discussion is based on Mark 16, the disputed ending. And then one of the verses referenced Matthew 20:23 refers in baptism in the TR but not in the CT. And finally the "baptism" of Luke 12:50 appears to refer to His death, i.e. baptism by fire.

Naturally, I totally disagree with thinking "foreknowledge" refers to foreseeing individuals before they are created. If you study how the words are used biblically, the idea is knowledge formulated or acquired in the past being used in the present. So when God carries our His redemption plan, including choosing believers, it is according to His foreknowledge or according to plan.

actually, jesus was referencing the OT symbol of God oas the Chief Sheperd, and was giving us the flock as being the Jews, and then the gentiles would also be added later!

 

[Van]

My first desire would be to think of the verse as Holy Spirit baptism, but basically a harmony of the gospel accounts would lead me away from that.

I can explain Acts 2:38; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:11-12; and 1 Peter 3:21, if necessary.

I presented the reason why the balance of scripture precludes Mark 16:16 referring to water baptism, because of your example of a professing believer who was water baptized, yet not saved.

I, too, can explain Acts 2:38; 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:11-12; and 1 Peter 3:21, demonstrating spiritual baptism is necessary for salvation but water baptism is not.

For example Acts 2:28 can be understood to read, Repent [and be saved] (and let each of you be water baptized for the forgiveness of your sins) and you shall receive [just as you received forgiveness when you were saved] the gift of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 22:16, where Paul is recounting the followup of his Damascus road experience, Ananias tells Paul to (1) arise, a human act, (2) and be water baptized, a human act, (3) wash away your sins, either meaning (a) symbolically as a human act, or (b) the act of God, and (4) calling on His name. Now whoever calls on the Lord shall be saved, and we cannot call on the Lord unless be believe in Him, so the verse says when Paul is saved by calling on the name of the Lord, which washes His sins away he should make known that God has spiritually baptized him into Christ and forgiven his sins, by ceremonially washing away his sins and be water baptized.

Romans 6:3-4 is referring to our spiritual baptism.

Galatians 3:27 is referring to our spiritual baptism.

Colossians 2:11:12 refers to our spiritual baptism.

1 Peter 3:21 prefigures our salvation in the "ark" of Christ by referring to those saved in the ark of Noah, therefore baptism is symbolic, not washing dirt off flesh, but illustrating that when we are spiritually baptized into Christ, our sins are forgiven; therefore the spiritual baptism into Christ, including the circumcision done without hands, provides peace with God, with our good conscience untroubled by the fear of God's wrath, through the resurrection of Christ.

 

[12strings]

"of My sheep" and "My sheep" refers to two different groups, my sheep refers to those who belong to Jesus, and therefore are saved already, they are the sheep of His pasture. On the other hand, of My sheep refers to people who are open to the gospel, folks that can receive the gospel with joy. Therefore, people who are not "of My sheep" are not receptive to the gospel.

I know I'm way behind on this, but can't believe no one has yet asked: "How, where, and why do you think "of my sheep" & "My sheep are 2 separate groups of people?

 

[Van]

As I presented before, "my sheep" refers to folks who belong to Jesus, i.e. they are spiritually in Christ. "of My sheep" refers to people who are receptive to the gospel, willing given the opportunity, to receive the gospel with joy.

I study and draw conclusions based on the NASB. So looking at John 10:11 we see Jesus say He lays down His life for "the sheep." Now if this read "my sheep" the Calvinist view would be supported but alas it does not. Therefore sheep refers to the lost, not just elect lost.

Next, verse 16, Jesus says He has other sheep, not of this fold. Then note the future "they will become" on flock. So by the numbers we have sheep that are not yet "my sheep" but they will become part of my flock in the future. Therefore these are "of my sheep." Now notice in verse 26, Jesus does not say "you do not because you are not my sheep, which would be how it would read if Calvinism were true, but instead it reads not of My sheep, referring to people now lost but open to the gospel.

One more point, the word in Greek translated of is "ek" which is a preposition meaning out of or metaphorically point of origin. Thus those who are "of My sheep" make up the group from which some but not all become My sheep.

Now a second difference is "My sheep" have been given to Christ, past tense, verse 29 with the implied pronoun referring back to verse 27 and My sheep.

Now lets circle back to verse 26 which is translated "of My sheep." Notice the parallel idea in John 8:47 where people who are "of God" hear but those not "of God" do not hear. Now we know that in order to believe in the Son, we must believe in the One who sent the Son, i.e. God the Father. So we have those who believe in God and are looking for the promised Messiah, as part of the "of My sheep" classification, and more broadly, we have those who may not be believers yet, but have not rejected God. These two groups, I believe, make up the classification "of My sheep."

 

[percho]

As I presented before, "my sheep" refers to folks who belong to Jesus, i.e. they are spiritually in Christ. "of My sheep" refers to people who are receptive to the gospel, willing given the opportunity, to receive the gospel with joy.

I study and draw conclusions based on the NASB. So looking at John 10:11 we see Jesus say He lays down His life for "the sheep." Now if this read "my sheep" the Calvinist view would be supported but alas it does not. Therefore sheep refers to the lost, not just elect lost.

Next, verse 16, Jesus says He has other sheep, not of this fold. Then note the future "they will become" on flock. So by the numbers we have sheep that are not yet "my sheep" but they will become part of my flock in the future. Therefore these are "of my sheep." Now notice in verse 26, Jesus does not say "you do not because you are not my sheep, which would be how it would read if Calvinism were true, but instead it reads not of My sheep, referring to people now lost but open to the gospel.

One more point, the word in Greek translated of is "ek" which is a preposition meaning out of or metaphorically point of origin. Thus those who are "of My sheep" make up the group from which some but not all become My sheep.

Now a second difference is "My sheep" have been given to Christ, past tense, verse 29 with the implied pronoun referring back to verse 27 and My sheep.

Now lets circle back to verse 26 which is translated "of My sheep." Notice the parallel idea in John 8:47 where people who are "of God" hear but those not "of God" do not hear. Now we know that in order to believe in the Son, we must believe in the One who sent the Son, i.e. God the Father. So we have those who believe in God and are looking for the promised Messiah, as part of the "of My sheep" classification, and more broadly, we have those who may not be believers yet, but have not rejected God. These two groups, I believe, make up the classification "of My sheep."

Not sure I followed that and will study more. So in verse 26 those at that time did not believe therefore were not of my sheep but later they might become believers and then they would become, "my sheep"?

 

[Van]

Not sure I followed that and will study more. So in verse 26 those at that time did not believe therefore were not of my sheep but later they might become believers and then they would become, "my sheep"?

Close but no cigar!! You understood the first part, those that did not believe were not part of the "of My sheep" classification. But then you said some of those who are not of My sheep will believe, which is backwards. Those who are not of My sheep will not believe and therefore will not become My sheep, but those who are "of My sheep" are open to the gospel and may become "My sheep" in the future.

 

[percho]

Close but no cigar!! You understood the first part, those that did not believe were not part of the "of My sheep" classification. But then you said some of those who are not of My sheep will believe, which is backwards. Those who are not of My sheep will not believe and therefore will not become My sheep, but those who are "of My sheep" are open to the gospel and may become "My sheep" in the future.

I just did not explain it very well. Take Paul on the day Stephen was slaughtered.
He was in unbelief in agreement with those throwing stones yet whereas they were not of my sheep, Paul was of my sheep but not yet a my sheep. Paul was open to something he did not believe, he just didn't yet know that he was open. I wonder how he found out he was open to something he did not believe?

I do not believe it had a thing to do with whether he was open to, or not.

I believe he was a sheep but did not know it, which made him of my sheep and when Jesus called because Jesus knew who the Father had given him
Paul heard his voice and followed him. Instantly went from unbelief to belief by the will and act of God and God only. He obtained mercy through the mercy seat which is the faith and love of Christ Jesus was by grace given Paul in exceeding abundance.

1 Tim 1:13,14 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Van]

Percho, you can believe what you want. But from my side of the street, Paul believed in God and was open to the promised Messiah. At first he thought Jesus was not the Messiah, but on the road to Damascus, he changed his mind because of the revelatory grace of God.

Next all mankind are sheep and the lost are sheep without a shepherd.

Scripture teaches Paul did not change "instantly" but rather came to that conclusion over time and consulted others 3 years after the Damascus road revelation. Galatians 1:15-18.

Assertions without specific support in scripture are unsound.

In summary, Matthew 13:1-30 teaches of various kinds of receptivity among the lost. You can deny it till the cows come home, its still the inspired word. Three of the four soils were "of My sheep" but only one soil's faith was credited as righteousness and placed in Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Percho, you can believe what you want. But from my side of the street, Paul believed in God and was open to the promised Messiah. At first he thought Jesus was not the Messiah, but on the road to Damascus, he changed his mind because of the revelatory grace of God.

God literally knock paul off his spiritual high horse, and openned him up to be able to believe on jesus!

Next all mankind are sheep and the lost are sheep without a shepherd.

Scripture teaches Paul did not change "instantly" but rather came to that conclusion over time and consulted others 3 years after the Damascus road revelation. Galatians 1:15-18.

actually, he was receiving direct revelation from jesus Himself!

Assertions without specific support in scripture are unsound.

In summary, Matthew 13:1-30 teaches of various kinds of receptivity among the lost. You can deny it till the cows come home, its still the inspired word. Three of the four soils were "of My sheep" but only one soil's faith was credited as righteousness and placed in Christ.

that story shows us that ONLY the fourth soil would provide fertle ground for the Gospel, NOTHING to do with either a cal/Arm view!