What are you asking me? To give you Calvin's definition of total depravity?
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What would you believe...
- Thread starter steaver
- Start date
What are you asking me? To give you Calvin's definition of total depravity?
No, how you do!
How would I give you a definition of something that i believe doesn't exist?
You might be misunderstanding how calvinists actually define that term!
I doubt it. How about this....sinners are not capable on making a decision for salvation due to them being under bondage of sin and enslaved to the flesh.
You could also explain to me how Adam was able to respond to God and obey God after he sinned?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Then God actually saved noone. God created a way for each man to choose salvation for himself by obedience.
Congratulations, you have discovered the Covenant of Moses. Laws by which men can work out their own salvation. The only kicker is that Paul says that the purpose of the law was to show us that no one could actually do it.
Actually, God has saved many so far and still is.
Yes, obedience by choosing faith in the works of Jesus Christ.
Contrary, I have discovered the Faith of Abraham apart from the Law.
Correct, to bring us to Christ by faith.
You mean the time when he and Eve hid themselves from God, as had real fear of meeting Him for very first time?
Jesus said that all of us are slaves to sin, and in bondage to our flesh, did he not?
Yes, explain to me how Adam was able to respond to God and obey God after he sinned?
Yes He did. Doesn't make your case for total depravity.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Tap dancing.
So which is it? Has God made the choice and taken 100% of the responsibility for salvation, or has God abdicated the final choice to people, making mankind at least partially responsible for salvation?
If God desires ALL to be saved and God calls ALL and God draws ALL and not all are saved, then the reality is that whatever the reason, God has a leaky ‘salvation’ desire/call/draw.
No tap dancing necessary. The answer is both.
If you base your beliefs on this faulty premise, then you will absolutely box yourself in with no ability to hear the scriptures. I do not view God's perfect salvation plan as "leaky". If I call down to the person trapped in a well and say grab on to the life line I'm throwing you and I will save you, and that person rejects the life line, was my plan to save the person faulty? God is sovereign, if He chooses to give a person a choice, why do you fault Him for it?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
And how is the person who grabbed the line not deserving of credit for grabbing the line? Did YOU pull him up 100% alone, or does he deserve some credit for 'holding on'?
So the plan to throw a line down a well and hope the person grabs it is not 100% effective at saving anyone that you desire to save, is it? They MUST do their part or there will be no rescue.
You refuse to acknowledge the inescapable 'shared salvation'. If God grants people the ultimate choice, then it is some form of synergism and the saved deserve some small credit for the choice that separates them from the damned. God might be 99% responsible, but God is not 100% responsible. God does not save alone.
[EDIT]: I apologize for dragging this topic off topic. You can respond with the last word and I will leave it alone.
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This is true in part, they MUST do their part which is repent of unbelief and call upon the Lord for salvation through faith, nothing physical so I guess the tieing of the rope around oneself may be seen as a work and is not a good example, but faith is not a work. God had not created a plan of salvation and then "hoped" some people would accept. God already knew some would accept before He ever created the world. There is nothing God can learn.
God alone saves, faith is not a work.
Not at all. The topic is what one might believe if one read only the bible and allowed no influence of men who came before. You seem to be influenced strongly by Calvin's thoughts on these matters. Because when you say things like God's sovereignty would be called into question if God in His sovereignty gave people choices, it really makes no sense and just sounds like a Calvinism talking point. Or that God's call would be ineffectual if all are called and all are not saved. God's call is totally effectual, whether it be unto death or unto life, ALL will bow to Jesus Christ. God's word is always effectual.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I was converted from Atheism at a Catholic Charismatic Fellowship (that just happens to be where God dragged me to hear about Jesus). So I started reading the bible with a knowledge of scripture and theology that would not fill one side of an index card. I was actually surprised how different the Jesus of scripture is from the hand-wringing desperately egar to convince all characture presented in the few times I had been exposed to church. Jesus of the Bible is more of a "here are the facts, take them or leave them" sort.
John 10:22-30
22 At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23 it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
[You don't believe because you aren't my sheep ... I have little time to waste on 'not my sheep' ... Here is what I came to say to comfort my sheep.]
Matthew 10:11-15
11 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. 12 As you enter the house, give it your greeting. 13 If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. 14 Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.
[We don't need to deliver the gospel like beggars or used car salesmen trying any means to trick people onto buying what we are selling. Just tell them, if they don't want it ... let that be on their head.]
Mark 11:15-17
15 Then they *came to Jerusalem. And He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves; 16 and He would not permit anyone to carry merchandise through the temple. 17 And He began to teach and say to them, “Is it not written, ‘MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS’? But you have made it a ROBBERS’ DEN.”
[Contrary to the church characture, Jesus was not meek and gentile in the face of wrong. So I guess we don't need to be either.]
John 3:16-20
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
[Everyone always quotes John 3:16 ... which makes it sound like, "OK, God loves me. That's nice." ... I always thought the money verse was John 3:18 ... two choices: you better think about which group you are in!]
Now I have no idea what a "pure conclusion" is. These are conclusions based on what I read in the Gospels that resonated with what I knew of life and stuck in my memory because they did not present Jesus like a young version of the Pope (all gentle and always looking to hurt no feelings).
I don't know how the popes in the beggining taught, but all the ones in my lifetime seem to be afraid to tell the world if you reject Jesus Christ as the Son of God and Lord of all you will be damned to hell. Even the Catholics on this board are afraid to say the truth of the matter.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
To be fair to the Catholics, they have a very different view of salvation. For most Protestants, it is a binary choice: you either have faith and believe in Christ (you are saved) or you don't. For Catholics, salvation is a life-long process (perhaps extending into purgatory) where you are sort of saved the moment you join the RCC, but the deal isn't closed until the very end. So who can say (as a Catholic) where anyone will ultimately end up. I believe the concept is that God saves his Bride (the Church collectively = the RCC) so individuals are saved THROUGH the Church (RCC).
Catholic Dogma is why I REALLY like Sola Sciptura.