What would your answer be...

[Bro. James]

Study the eleventh of Hebrews.

A modern connotation of faith is that we have it of ourselves, somehow unscathed by our depravity. i.e. There is a little good in everyone--right, and God provides chances for us to exercise our faith and work on gaining heaven by righteous deeds. Wrong answer.

According to Eph. 2:8-10, we are saved by grace through faith which is not of ourselves but rather a gift from God. Faith cannot be merited. This is what grace is about. Man is utterly lost and undone. God gives the faith. He is the potter, we are the clay--just like in the creation, when man became a living soul, having received breath from God.

Who do we trust? The government? The bankers? The financial advisers? All have shown to be not so trustworthy--for many generations--probably never have been worthy of trust.

What is in your spiritual wallet? Will it anchor the soul for eternity?

Even so come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

So, armed with that, what would you advise your enquirer to actually do? Go away and wait for God to do something? Doesn't that take the responsibility off his/her shoulders somewhat?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So, armed with that, what would you advise your enquirer to actually do? Go away and wait for God to do something? Doesn't that take the responsibility off his/her shoulders somewhat?

Their responsibility is to believe. Belief then requires exploration and exploration drives them into the bible and into reviewing varied churches, reading books etc. Here is where I would caution against ty int onesself to one church.

 

[Bro. James]

So, armed with that, what would you advise your enquirer to actually do? Go away and wait for God to do something? Doesn't that take the responsibility off his/her shoulders somewhat?

"My sheep hear My voice and follow Me, another they will not follow..." John 10. Most of the homo sapiens on this planet do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

"...we are His workmanship in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:8-10 in context.

God does the calling: see the conversion of Saul, Phillipian jailer, and Ethiopian eunuch.

This is not about: repeat after me----- now you are saved salvation.

The churches are overrun with the unregenerated. See John 3:5. Nicodemus, a master(teacher) of religion, was not born from above. He had not a clue.

Peace,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

So, wait for God to do the calling, then? What if He doesn't?

Their responsibility is to believe. Belief then requires exploration and exploration drives them into the bible and into reviewing varied churches, reading books etc. Here is where I would caution against ty int onesself to one church.

I believe in Australia. That doesn't make me an Australian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe in Australia. That doesn't make me an Australian.

What does one thing have to do with the other?

 

[Matt Black]

"Even the demons believe and tremble."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"Even the demons believe and tremble."

Yes & I did not only imply belief if you read my post. I think we have all agreed that the HS has to do some heavy lifting here.

My own testimony revolves around my being confronted with Unbelief. I was quite shocked that anyone would accuse me of unbelief......I went to church, said I believed in Christ yada yada. It was not until I truly was confronted with my "Real" unbelief that I was able to grow as a Christian. Am I completely there.....heck no but Ive made great strides since that confrontation. Go listen to the Sermon from George Whitefield, Method of Grace (that is the sermon that pushed me over the cliff so to speak).... Georgie also confronts backsliding in it so its well worth the time...in my humble opinion.

 

[Matt Black]

Referring then to your previous post, would you say that it is necessary (as opposed to advisable/ desirable) for the enquirer to 'explore, review and read' in order to be saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Referring then to your previous post, would you say that it is necessary (as opposed to advisable/ desirable) for the enquirer to 'explore, review and read' in order to be saved?

No, only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the enquirer (John 3 : 6-8) .The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (2 Tim.1: 10).

However if the person begins to have hunger to read & understand, has a myriad of questions about spiritual things, gets involved in a church etc.....its a clue that they have had some type of regenerative experience.

May I ask if you are having these experiences yourself?

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Whilst I agree with the 'numbered stages' posts, I'm interested in 'drilling down' further with regard to the ultimate numbered stage in each case: you (pl.) use terms such as 'faith', 'believe in', 'trust in', etc - practically speaking, what do these terms actually mean?

This kind of discussion would take place based on the questions that follow your initial conversation.
What needs to be established as time permits,is the bible as the word of the Living God that has full authority over all men everywhere.
Biblical repentance means a turning and forsaking of all known sin,and a turning towards God
For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Saving Faith is a God given gift that all believers exercise,bringing the whole man to the whole Christ.

Your follow up post is now moving toward what constitutes proper discipleship.....getting this person to understand they need to come under the word of God being preached by a God called pastor. How to study the bible in context.....going over some main doctrinal ideas.This implies a longer time frame than the OP seemed to be speaking of.
I always mention sermonaudio to a person now, having come to trust that as a tool that can be used until a person can find a biblical NT.Church,and a God called pastor.:type:

 

[Matt Black]

No, only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the enquirer (John 3 : 6-8) .The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (2 Tim.1: 10).

However if the person begins to have hunger to read & understand, has a myriad of questions about spiritual things, gets involved in a church etc.....its a clue that they have had some type of regenerative experience.

May I ask if you are having these experiences yourself?

Depends what you mean by 'experience'. As something of a 'recovering charismatic', I tend these days not to place great store by my 'feelings'.

So, would it be fair to say that you would say to the enquirer, "Ultimately, it's up to the Holy Spirit: either He likes you in which case you'll be saved, or He doesn't, in which case you're toast"?

 

[Van]

Hi Matt,

Couple of points arising from that: firstly, how does one become a 'disciple of Christ' and what exactly does that term mean? Secondly, there doesn't seem to be any mention of the Cross in your answer, although I'm sure that was an oversight!:smilewinkgrin:

I explained how one becomes a disciple of Christ in the next phrase, perhaps that was your oversight. I did not mention that Jesus is God Almight, and the Messiah either, but we learn all that when we study Jesus.

I do not water down the gospel, but present it with clarity, warts and all. Remember the gospel is not a set of doctrines to memorize, but a love story of God for our wretched, worthless, sinful selves. The necessary response is to love God with all our hearts, such that are devoted to Him, helping him as ambassadors, making disciples as we live our lives in accordance with all He commanded us to do. Give me a stupid fisherman like Peter, anytime, who stretched out his hands and went where he did not want to go, rather than some phD theologian who never put his life on the line for the least of Christ's brothers.

 

[Matt Black]

Do you mean this:

and learn about God, Jesus, the Prophets, Apostles, and those who did their best to become Christ-like. The life of a Christian is not easy, you will be ridiculed, disparaged and persecuted for your confession before men of your devotion to Christ.

?

If so, my apologies; I didn't realise that the 'and...' was an explanation of what you meant by becoming a disciple; I assumed it meant 'in addition' to becoming a disciple. But I have some further questions for you arising from that post:

Here is how I would answer the question. To become a saved Christian is to have God choose you for salvation by transferring you out of the realm of darkness and death where you are now, and into the spiritual kingdom of His Son, Jesus Christ.

And if He doesn't so choose you...?

God does this when He accepts your faith in Christ, which saves you from the penalty of your sin which you deserve.

What do you mean by 'faith'? Mere intellectual assent?

If you do not believe from your heart in God, you cannot be saved.

Devout Muslims, Jews, Mormons, JWs, Christdelphians, etc would say that they believe in God from their heart. Are they saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Depends what you mean by 'experience'. As something of a 'recovering charismatic', I tend these days not to place great store by my 'feelings'.

So, would it be fair to say that you would say to the enquirer, "Ultimately, it's up to the Holy Spirit: either He likes you in which case you'll be saved, or He doesn't, in which case you're toast"?

The man who wants salvation already HAS it. The man who hungers and thirsts (desires it) after righteousness is a blessed character (Matt. 5: 2-6). The alien sinner doesn't want salvation, he doesn't fear God, and he doesn't love God; therefore we conclude that the man who wants salvation, fears God and loves God is a subject of grace (Rom. 3: 11, 18; I John 4: 10) .

 

[Doubting Thomas]

...if someone came up to you and asked "How do I become a Christian? What must I do to be saved?" Assume the enquirer is ignorant of theological language and is only saying 'saved' because s/he heard it somewhere.

Well, I'd first see if the inquirer knew WHY he needed to be 'saved', and I'd do this by presenting the Law. Only if the person agreed that (1) he was in fact guilty of violating God's Law, and that according to God's justice he was condemned and separated from a Holy God and thus dead spiritually, and (2) thus in no way could merit/earn salvation by keeping the Law, would I proceed to the Gospel (unless,perhaps, the person in question was asking 'how one becomes a christian' just for curiosity sake and uninterested in becoming on himself)

I'd tell them that because God loved us that He in the person of His son became a man, obeyed the Law perfectly (when we couldn't) then died in our place on the Cross for our sins, and that He rose again. I'd then say if he repented of his sins (which means not only to feel sorry for commiting them, but to also turn from them) and had faith in Christ as his Lord/Savior, he'd be saved.

I would point out that 'faith' is not just an intellectual belief but involved trust/reliance, perhaps using the illustration of sitting in a chair or crossing a bridge: since Christ is the only one who obeyed God perfectly and died in our place, He's the only 'bridge' to God. To get to God, we'd have to get on that 'Bridge' not just believe intellectually that it is there. I'd then state our first step of faith would thus be to identifiy with Christ in the waters of baptism where one is dead, buried and risen with Christ (Romans 6:3-5, Colossions 2:12) and puts on Christ (Gal 3:27) if he hasn't done so before. It's being UNITED with Christ through faith, and not just believing facts about Him that saves.

Only if he indicated that he has been convicted by the Spirit and expressed the (Spirit-enabled) desire to repent and follow Christ, would I mention the importance Church and Communion (particularly the latter as a means of trustingly abiding in Him--John 6:51-56), and the importance of reading/hearing His word to know His will and praying for the strength to obey it, confessing/repenting when he falls short.

 

[Van]

Hi Matt,

Do you mean this: ?

If so, my apologies; I didn't realise that the 'and...' was an explanation of what you meant by becoming a disciple; I assumed it meant 'in addition' to becoming a disciple. But I have some further questions for you arising from that post:
And if He doesn't so choose you...? What do you mean by 'faith'? Mere intellectual assent?

Devout Muslims, Jews, Mormons, JWs, Christdelphians, etc would say that they believe in God from their heart. Are they saved?

You seem to be working overtime to misconstrue what I said.

1) If God does not credit your trust in Christ as righteousness, you are not saved. It does not depend on willing to be saved, or doing works, but on God, who knows your heart. The opportunity to fully trust in Christ with all your heart, continues. Many of those who "rededicate" themselves in Christ are then chosen by God and saved.

2) I already addressed "faith" meaning to love God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) with all your heart, trusting in Him alone for your salvation.

3) Do these love Jesus, our God and Savior, for He is the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except through trust in Him alone. Romans 5:2.

There is a story about an itinerant preacher who came through the heat of summer to a meeting house, but only one person was waiting. The preacher said, it does not look like many will be coming, perhaps we should go across the street and buy some lemonade? The farmer said, even if only one cow was found in a pasture, he would still feed his stock. Chasten, the Preacher, said find, and began to preach. After an hour or so, the farmer interrupted. I said I would feed my cow, not drop the whole load of feed on one cow.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Any of these will work just fine, along with an unumerable amount ways to share Christ...

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Matthew 19:24-26 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved ? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved

John 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. <[> John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved,

Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved

Romans 5:9-10 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

So tell me what is "distorted" about it. What is distorted about the fact that you believe God absolutely refuses to give grace to some people? It is an evil doctrine, not found in scripture to be sure. It is based on a perverted view of God's Sovereignty. I know full well what you believe. And I reject your personal caricature of God.

is God obligated to offer salvation to ANYONE?

Don't we ALL deserve hell?

 

[percho]

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man. Ecc 12:13

Let's say you attempt to do the above. What it say about you. It says you love God and it says you love your fellow man. However you will not be 100% successful and beside because of the man, Adam, you are going to die.

However: And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:17-21 KJV

That should take care of him.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor. 5:19

Probably includes that man.

BTW By grace through the faith is all in that passage from 1 Peter.