What would your church do?

[Pastor Larry]

The first priority of the church should be to protect the victim, not the offender. In a case such as this, a choice has to be made.

First, who is protecting the offender? I don't see that happening here. Admittedly, I don't know the whole story and neither do you, so we should be cautious.

Second, why does this choice have to be made? Why cannot a church summon up the obedience to minister to both? I am not sure I understand that. I think it depends on a lot of things, including teh size of the church.

To expect a victim of molestation to sit in church or anywhere else with her attacker present is ridiculous. There was a reason sex crimes were punished with the death penalty in the OT.

Not all sex crimes were punished by death. And It didn't have anything to do with being in the presence of someone else in church.

It seems some have more compassion for the offender than the victim.

Some may have more compassion for the offender than the victim. I don't know any of them and I am certainly not one of them.

Pastor Larry, what if this man had been staying in your home and molested one of your children? Would you allow him to continue to live in your home and sit across the table from your child that he sexually violated?

No, but is that happening in this situation? I was not aware that the church was asking this family to have the man over for dinner. Again, I don't know everything so I could be wrong on that. If the church is asking this family to have the man over for dinner, then they are wrong. That is inexcusable.

1 Corinthians 5

I won't quote the whole thing as you did. I am well familiar with it. Let's talk about the context.

1. It addresses an unrepentant sinner. That doesn't appear to be the case here, which means this passage is not applicable.

2. It addresses a church which was too proud to address the sin issue. This church has addressed it, which means this passage is not applicable.

That seems pretty plain to me.

It is very plain. Unfortunately, it does not seem to apply to this situation.

This father is upset because the church is forgiving this guy. The church is not trying to shield him from prosecution. The church has taken steps to deal with the issue.

And again, we do not know enough of the details to really know what happened or what is happening. So we should be cautious.

 

[Amy.G]

Pastor Larry, what if this man had been staying in your home and molested one of your children? Would you allow him to continue to live in your home and sit across the table from your child that he sexually violated?

Pastor Larry: No, but is that happening in this situation? I was not aware that the church was asking this family to have the man over for dinner. Again, I don't know everything so I could be wrong on that. If the church is asking this family to have the man over for dinner, then they are wrong. That is inexcusable.

What is the difference, Pastor? The point is that the victim is having to constantly face her molestor.


I believe the 1 Cor. passage is applicable. Paul tells us exactly what to do when someone who is 'named' a brother commits sexual sin.

Pastor Larry:

2. It addresses a church which was too proud to address the sin issue. This church has addressed it, which means this passage is not applicable.

It seems to me that Paul says to address it by removing the offender from the church.
So, how did the church in question address it? By leaving the offender in the fellowship.
Maybe they should have read 1 Corinthians.

If my pastor or church handled a situation in the same way as this church, I would be leaving myself.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What is the difference, Pastor? The point is that the victim is having to constantly face her molestor.

Not necessarily. As I poitned out earlier (and perhaps you missed), it depends on factors such as the size of the church. In a church of several thousand, or even several hundred, it is conceivable that she would never have to face him. I pastor a relatively small church, and I don't see everyone every week.

It may be wise for this man to go to another church depending on circumstances. As I have said before, a different church, so long as it is biblical, is usually the best option. But it is not the only option.

I believe the 1 Cor. passage is applicable. Paul tells us exactly what to do when someone who is 'named' a brother commits sexual sin.

No, the context is unrepentant sexual sin. Not just sexual sin.

It seems to me that Paul says to address it by removing the offender from the church.

Yes, when he does not repent. Remember, the words of Christ in Matthew 18 go right along with this, that when he repents, restore him. Gal 6:1 is applicable that we restore one. So there are many passages on this topic.

So, how did the church in question address it? By leaving the offender in the fellowship. Maybe they should have read 1 Corinthians.

Yes, if the man was unrepentant, then they should follow 1 Cor 5.

If my pastor or church handled a situation in the same way as this church, I would be leaving myself.

I would hesitate to say since I don't know how they handled it. Again, remember, the article doesn't say, and you haven't given us any inside information yet.

However, if peope leave a church because the church practices biblically in matters of sin and restoration, then I welcome them to leave becaues I think it is matter of obedience to Christ. The church is a place of holiness and grace. And we must demonstrate both. It is not enough to castigate sin and sinners. We must also have grace for those who respond.

Again, however, I note you decline to talk about forgiving others as God in Christ forgives us. What do you think that looks like in life?

 

[rufus]

Pastor Larry, I'm with you, brother, and believe your advice is biblically sound. For both sides of the issue.

Rufus

 

[Amy.G]

Where does Paul (in the 1 Cor. 5 passage) mention anything about the man being unrepentant? Where in this passage does Paul say the man should remain in the fellowship?
Maybe at a later time, the man could be restored to fellowship, but Paul makes it clear that he was to be removed.

If the molestor in this case has been forgiven and restored to fellowship, there is no reason to press criminal charges against him. We are told not to take our brethren to court.

And if he has been forgiven and restored, there is also no reason for him to be 'watched'. He should be free to sit next to the little girl if he wants. Otherwise, there is still forgiveness being witheld.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Where does Paul (in the 1 Cor. 5 passage) mention anything about the man being unrepentant?

In v. 1, he "has his father's wife." That is a present tense verb, indicating it is still going on.

Where in this passage does Paul say the man should remain in the fellowship?

he doesn't, because the man is unrepentant. Some people believe that the man spoken of in 2 Cor 2:5ff is the same man, and Paul is commanding restoration.

Maybe at a later time, the man could be restored to fellowship, but Paul makes it clear that he was to be removed.

Yes becuase he was unrepentant, which is what I have said all along.

If the molestor in this case has been forgiven and restored to fellowship, there is no reason to press criminal charges against him. We are told not to take our brethren to court.

Incorrect. 1 Cor 6, the passage to which you refer about taking our brother to court, refers to civil matters, not criminal. This man has not just committed a civil offense against another person, but a criminal offense against the state. Forgiveness does not mean we don't press criminal charges. An individual may choose not to. But they are not required to not press charges.

And if he has been forgiven and restored, there is also no reason for him to be 'watched'. He should be free to sit next to the little girl if he wants. Otherwise, there is still forgiveness being witheld.

Again incorrect. Forgiveness means restoration of the relationship with the church. It does not mean that all previous life goes on unaffected. A man who has stolen money can be forgiven and let back into the church, but should not be allowed to count the offering.

So I think you are confusing some things here.

I also note that you have not yet address the forgiveness issue. Why not? What does it mean to "forgive as God in Christ forgave us"? What does that look like?

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, the government is considering passing a law to keep them locked up forever and if that passes, we won't have to worry about him.
I say, send him on his merry way. I would gladly stand before God and say, I was trying to protect the flock. If you keep him and he molests the little girl again, then you should be willing to go down with him.

BBob

 

[Helen]

Just a note from our own experience here. The experience includes dealings with three sex offenders, two men who have previously been in jail for their crimes and one woman who was never prosecuted.

In all three cases, the offenses against the children/minors were only part of an entire character problem. All three were involved in other immoral/illegal activities. Now, this may not be true of every sex offender, but I find it striking that the sex offenses seemed, in these three cases, to FOLLOW a string of other failings morally.

Amy, forgiveness is not the same as trust. Forgiveness means you do not desire to punish the person yourself but leave it in the hands of God. You refuse to carry a grudge. Now, you can forgive a thief who robbed you, but that does not mean you need to give him the keys to your house! To allow this man to sit next to any young child, let along the one he offended, is to present him with temptation, to say the least! That would be extremely unwise.

Getting back to the three sex offenders I am aware of, and know personally, none of them ever really turned around morally. They did stop activities with children, but that is primarily because all three were refused access to children, the two men legally and the woman by the rest of us. But none of the three ever really turned around. The woman is dead now, but I suppose there is still time for the two men -- although the signs are very, very far from promising...

 

[annsni]

OK - I didn't read ALL the posts but here's my take and my guess as to how our church would deal with that (from various experiences with not quite that but similar situations).

#1 - The child and parents would go for counselling - with the bill covered by the church.
#2 - The offender would be put under church discipline and asked to leave the church.
#3 - IF the offender was repentant, that would be a time for restoration to the fellowship of believers - but not at the church that the child and parents were in. That is not punishing the offender or not forgiving him - it's being wise and protecting the child - emotionally and mentally.
#4 - The parents would be encouraged to press charges (I don't know a parent who wouldnt').
#5 - The entire church family would be notified from the pulpit of the occurance - and the caution to watch their children carefully because NO WHERE is safe.

Not allowing the man to continue to fellowship at this church has nothing to do with forgiveness or not. Yes, people can forgive but there are permanent emotional and mental scars on that child that will NOT improve with seeing this man each week. It also shows the seriousness of the situation to all involved. Also, a pastor would go to the new church with this man to speak to the new pastor and we would request (strongly) that this man not be allowed anywhere in the church alone - he would need to be escorted at all times. A child molester doesn't turn from his ways too often. He may stop for a time but it's too strong a pull for them - and no child should ever POSSIBLY experience that. Also, if he DID molest someone on church grounds, and the church was aware of his past, they would be liable for all damages.

Honestly? If someone ever touched my child , I'd kill them. With my bare hands. I'm 5'3" and 140 lbs. I'll stand before God and take my judgment on that - I think He'd understand. NO one crosses this mama bear. Don't even attempt it. I've taken a 1400 lb. horse to the ground - a molester is not a problem. I know it's not all that Christ-like but that mill stone around the neck? I'd tie the knot.

 

[Helen]

Ann, you are classic! I read your last paragraph to Barry and we both had tears in our eyes laughing at the way you phrased things -- not at your attitude, but at the way you presented it. Go for it, mama bear!

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, forgiveness is not the same as trust. Forgiveness means you do not desire to punish the person yourself but leave it in the hands of God. You refuse to carry a grudge. Now, you can forgive a thief who robbed you, but that does not mean you need to give him the keys to your house! To allow this man to sit next to any young child, let along the one he offended, is to present him with temptation, to say the least! That would be extremely unwise.

If the theif repented, why shouldn't you give him the keys to your house? Either he repented or he didn't. True repentance means he has turned from his sin (changed his mind). If he goes back to his previous behavior, did he actually repent?
I am not saying we aren't to forgive. I'm saying, when a person is found out to have abused a child in the church, he should be removed from the local body and if found to have truly repented at a later time, allowed back into fellowship. Just my opinion and interpretation of the scriptures.

 

[Pastor Larry]

... but there are permanent emotional and mental scars

I don't think I buy this idea of permanent emotional and mental scars. I dont' see it in Scripture. Perhaps that is my view of grace that allows to us live in victory. Life was never intended to be free from suffering, but God uses these things to show us his grace.

... seeing this man each week.

As I pointed out, she does not have to see him each week in many if not most cases.

Honestly? If someone ever touched my child , I'd kill them. With my bare hands. I'm 5'3" and 140 lbs. I'll stand before God and take my judgment on that - I think He'd understand. NO one crosses this mama bear. Don't even attempt it. I've taken a 1400 lb. horse to the ground - a molester is not a problem. I know it's not all that Christ-like but that mill stone around the neck? I'd tie the knot.

I don't want to beat up on you, Ann, but I think the bolded part says all that needs to be said. This is exactly why I am passionate about this topic. There is so much unChristlike behavior that goes on our churches that we must address. This is a very serious issue. And we must treat it that way. To live in a way that we know is unChristlike, or to state our intentions to do such, is hardly different no matter the case. In many cases, I think we can argue that pious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated here) is worse than impious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated by this child molester). Why? Because impious unChristlikeness is easily recognized and condemned. Pious unChristlikeness is too easily accepted as "normal." We can do better. We must.

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think I buy this idea of permanent emotional and mental scars. I dont' see it in Scripture. Perhaps that is my view of grace that allows to us live in victory. Life was never intended to be free from suffering, but God uses these things to show us his grace.

As I pointed out, she does not have to see him each week in many if not most cases.

I think the bolded part says all that needs to be said. This is exactly why I am passionate about this topic. There is so much unChristlike behavior that goes on our churches that we must address. This is a very serious issue. And we must treat it that way. To live in a way that we know is unChristlike, or to state our intentions to do such, is hardly different no matter the case. In many cases, I think we can argue that pious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated here) is worse than impious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated by this child molester). Why? Because impious unChristlikeness is easily recognized and condemned. Pious unChristlikeness is too easily accepted as "normal." We can do better. We must.

Maybe you don't buy the idea of permanent scars because you've never experienced molestation. You are totally ignorant on this subject.
I cannot believe I'm reading this garbage. And you're a pastor?? We're being more un-Christilike than a child molestor???? I have been talking about church discipline, forgiveness is a different subject, as Ann said. She has it right. I am thankful you're not my pastor.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Maybe you don't buy the idea of permanent scars because you've never experienced molestation.

Really?? Or maybe I don't buy it because of how I understand the grace of God.

You are totally ignorant on this subject.

And how would you know? You have no idea what my background is, nor what my experience is. All you know is that we disagree on this.

For the record, I have dealt with this personally in my ministry. I have talked to other pastors and attorneys about it. So I may not know everything, but I am not "ignorant" by any meaningful definition of the word.

BTW, you still haven't addressed anything biblical with respect to the nature of forgiveness. Why are you so hesitant to talk about the Bible?

I cannot believe I'm reading this garbage.

Garbage? Since when is encouraging people to live biblically garbage? What exactly have I said that you think is garbage?

And you're a pastor??

Yes I am.

We're being more un-Christilike than a child molestor????

I didn't say that. Please go back and read what i said, and interact with that, if you have an issue with it.

I have been talking about church discipline, forgiveness is a different subject,

Not biblically. The two are related.

I am thankful you're not my pastor.

Not sure why. Do you object to ungodly attitudes being called out? Do you object to child predators being dealt with biblically? Do you object to reaching out to molested children with grace and love? What exactly do you object to?

 

[Pastor Larry]

BTW, for all, have you noticed how absent the Scripture is from this discussion? Apart from Amy's attempt to incorporate 1 Cor 5 (which is out of place), I can't recall any mention of Scripture apart from what I have mentioned.

I have repeatedly asked for someoen here to interact with "forgive just as God in Christ forgave you" and no one will.

There is a lot of emotion, a little psychology, and very little Scripture. And that is very telling to me.

 

[annsni]

I don't think I buy this idea of permanent emotional and mental scars. I dont' see it in Scripture. Perhaps that is my view of grace that allows to us live in victory. Life was never intended to be free from suffering, but God uses these things to show us his grace.

I'm sorry but I've counseled teens who have been molested - trust me, there's permanent damage. It's documented.

As I pointed out, she does not have to see him each week in many if not most cases.

So, what they never are in the building together? In different sanctuaries? Different services? Not all churches have that kind of situation. If they go to the same church, they WILL see each other there.

I think the bolded part says all that needs to be said. This is exactly why I am passionate about this topic. There is so much unChristlike behavior that goes on our churches that we must address. This is a very serious issue. And we must treat it that way. To live in a way that we know is unChristlike, or to state our intentions to do such, is hardly different no matter the case. In many cases, I think we can argue that pious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated here) is worse than impious unChristlikeness (as demonstrated by this child molester). Why? Because impious unChristlikeness is easily recognized and condemned. Pious unChristlikeness is too easily accepted as "normal." We can do better. We must.

But you know what? I never read a situation in Scripture where Jesus met with a child molester. Sexually molesting a child is a sin - a grievous sin. Think of what Jesus said about causing a young one to stumble. Molesting a child is causing more than just a stumble - it's causing a complete fall, and IMO, and from what Jesus said, they should be put to death. I'm just gonna help. I'm not being pious - I'm completely and utterly confessing my humaness. I'm a mother - I struggled to get pregnant, then carried these babies and had to have each one of them cut from my womb. I have the scars to prove it. You have NO idea the feelings a mother has towards her child - but God does because He compares Himself to a mother with her child. What does HE do to anyone who harms one of His children?? So, maybe what I should have done is to put "Christlike" in quotes because I'm sure that if Jesus met with someone who molested a child - ANY child - He'd have something to say about it. Hey, He beat people who made the temple a marketplace, right? What about if He met up with someone who sexually molested babies?

Ann, you are classic! I read your last paragraph to Barry and we both had tears in our eyes laughing at the way you phrased things -- not at your attitude, but at the way you presented it. Go for it, mama bear!

Helen - I feel quite strongly about my kids. Don't mess with mama-bear!

 

[Amy.G]

Thank you Ann! You are so right, mama bear!

 

[Amy.G]

No wonder we can't tell the church from the world anymore. It's full of child molestors and all kinds of other ungodly people.

Pastor Larry's solution sounds like the Catholic church keeping all those child molesting priests.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I'm sorry but I've counseled teens who have been molested - trust me, there's permanent damage. It's documented.

I have as well. That doesn’t mean there is permanent damage. That’s not even something that can really be documented. Furthermore, the fact that it may happen in some cases does not mean it happens in all. Very often, ongoing scars and difficulties are a reflection on how the situation was handled, both by one molested and the one doing the counseling.

So, what they never are in the building together? In different sanctuaries? Different services? Not all churches have that kind of situation. If they go to the same church, they WILL see each other there.

Sometimes different services, but it is not unreasonable to think that in a congregation of any size, they will not see each other. As I said, I pastor a small church and I don’t even know who is there from week to week and I look for them. When I attended a church of close to a thousand, I never knew who was there from week to week. When I was on staff at a church of about 300, I never knew who was there from week to week, and it was my job to know who was there. So, it is very safe to say that they may not run into each other at all.
But having said that, I have no problem sending the guy to a different church, provided it is a good church.

I never read a situation in Scripture where Jesus met with a child molester.

But we do read where he met with those who claimed to follow him but did not do what he said.

Sexually molesting a child is a sin - a grievous sin.

Yes.

Think of what Jesus said about causing a young one to stumble.

That is in a spiritual context, not a physical one.

Molesting a child is causing more than just a stumble - it's causing a complete fall, and IMO, and from what Jesus said, they should be put to death.

That’s not what he said.

What does HE do to anyone who harms one of His children??

He saved some of them and put them in charge of churches. He granted forgiveness to them when they repented. In fact, in one case, the church was acting very much like some here are … very unforgiving, and they did not want him in their midst. But a kind, loving Christian saint said “I will vouch for him.” And that man became the greatest missionary the church has ever known.

So, maybe what I should have done is to put "Christlike" in quotes because I'm sure that if Jesus met with someone who molested a child - ANY child - He'd have something to say about it.

Yes, he did say something about this kind of stuff. He confronted people in their sin and called them to repentance. He called the church to reach out to sinners and disciple them in the faith.

Hey, He beat people who made the temple a marketplace, right? What about if He met up with someone who sexually molested babies?

It depends on their response. If they confessed and repented, he would forgive them and save them. If they didn’t, he wouldn’t. We as a church should respond the same way Christ did.



I have a son. While a mother's feelings are different, it is hard for me to imagine that a mother cares any more about her child than a father does. But I hope and pray that if this were ever to happen I would have the grace of God at work in my life enough to respond biblically.

 

[tinytim]

BTW, for all, have you noticed how absent the Scripture is from this discussion? Apart from Amy's attempt to incorporate 1 Cor 5 (which is out of place), I can't recall any mention of Scripture apart from what I have mentioned.

I have repeatedly asked for someoen here to interact with "forgive just as God in Christ forgave you" and no one will.

There is a lot of emotion, a little psychology, and very little Scripture. And that is very telling to me.

Here is the words of our Gracious, loving Savior:
I agree with Him...
Matthew 18:6
(6) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.