What would your counsel be in this situation?

I'd go for "c" first, reminding the husband that there are times when the wife is definitely more rational in her approach to problems, then go for "a", then, if and only if they come for counsel, go for either "b" if husband is correct, and "c" if wife's logic is better. If both are believers, replace "c" with prayer with both, or whoever is the believer if only one is a child of God.

 

Is mutual submission really a myth? Consider I Cor 11:8-9: For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man.

Then consider verses 11-12: Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.

The relationship is one of equal worth and interdependence, not only one of submission by the wife to the husband.

 

Amen to that Bro. swaimj!

 

Mutual submission is not discussed when referring to family relationships...God has in place a perfect plan of authority. He has made it clear how husbands are to treat their wives and how wives are to respond and treat their husbands. Of course,if he is asking his wife to sin,then she is not held to submitting...(obey God first). I think the husband here may have been somewhat abrupt,but that still does not exempt the wife from her biblical duty.

How can there be any harmony in a marriage if there is no plan of authority...if children are not obedient to their parents and wives are not allwong headship over them,there are serious problems. It is there for our protection...my husband will be accountable to God how he leads,so I leave that to God to work things out with my husband. I allow my husband to teach me God's word and to make all decisions for our family...there are times(like with the children during the day) that I do make decisions regarding their discipline,but we have discussed that before things happen and if needed,I contact him when big things come up. I also make the children ask their daddy permission for things,so that they understand his role as the head. It is very important for children to see these roles lived out correctly...we may make mistakes but this is our goal as a family...

To add,my husband is so much like those verses you qouted,Barnabas...and he is a blessing....but my submission is based on my obedeince to God and His Word,not what kind of husband I have. In all honesty,our submission in all areas of our life is more about our relationship to Christ than the person anyway.

 

Preach, Molly, let me ask you two this: was I wrong in refusing to sign a falsified income tax form? My husband, by the way, was head usher in our church and we all believed him to be Christian...

Preach, we do not need a developed theology going into any situation with anyone. We need a developed relationship with the Lord God Himself and a developed prayer life. If we are close to and following the Lord, He will lead where we should go and teach us what we should say. He will never disagree with His own Word in the Bible. I'm not advocating 'feeling' religion, but rather relationship Christianity. The believer reads the Bible, for it is spiritual food. This will coordinate with where the Holy Spirit is leading him in a counseling situation.

There are plenty of people who have developed theologies and no relationship with God at all. I'd rather have a developed heart, submissive to and paying attention to the Holy Spirit inside me. After this many years walking with my Lord, I know His voice, and I know I can trust Him implicitly to lead me perfectly. I don't have to have a developed theology in order to counsel biblically. I don't have to depend on my own mind at all! That is a lesson the Lord taught me through enormous pain. I need to know His voice and His word. And I need to obey Him -- His foremost command being to love others.

If I truly care about that couple in the first post, I will sit down and quietly LISTEN to them before I talk -- except, perhaps, to ask questions. Then I would ask them to pray with me. I don't care if the husband is a non-believer. Going to the Lord is something everyone should do, and if I treat the two of them with courtesy and grace and respect, they might even do that to each other! At the very least, they will know that I am not depending on my own knowledge and understanding -- or my own theology.

 

Helen,

I stated in my post above that we should obey God first...if your husband asks you to sin,you should not.

 

The bottom line, which is continuously remains
ignored, is this: Just don't marry a guy who is like
this!
</font>

• Don't marry a guy who does not
  love the Lord with all his heart, with
  all his soul, and his neighbor as
  himself.</font>
• Don't marry someone until you have
  no doubt that our God wants you
  together for a lifetime.</font>
• Find out how he treats his mother
  and sisters, because he will treat you
  the same way.</font>
• Find out how his father treats his
  mother, because this is 80% of how
  he will treat you.</font>
• Stop jumping into marriages; date
  them long enough to find out what
  they're really like.</font>
• Stop thinking that marriage is some
  kind of a goal in life.</font>
• Stop thinking that marriage brings
  happiness; you have to work at
  making happiness.</font>
• Stop think you can change him.</font>
• Don't marry a guy you are not
  wiling to have rear your priceless
  children.</font>
• Don't mary a guy you are not
  wiling to stay with when he is 100
  pounds overweight and can hardly
  get around.</font>

But all that is a waste of bandwidth -- no one
believes me.

 

If a marriage is to the point where the husband has to say, "I am the man of the house! You must obey me! I'm making this decision; like it or not!" then this marriage had serious trouble long before this situation arrived.

The husband has a clear command from the Word of God to love his wife "as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it." To me, that is a self-sacrificing love. It is a love that puts her needs above my needs. It is a love that wants only what's best for her.

If a husband has to demand his right to be submitted to, then he has neglected his responsibility as a husband at some point down the road.

Our wives were given to us to be "helpmeets" not bond servants. Some of the best advice I ever received came from my wife. She is my "completer." If I am anything today, she bears the lion's share of the credit.

If this man in the scenario came to me for counsel and had the attitude that he was moving reagrdless of what his wife thought about it, I would counsel him to take the next several weeks/months and repair the relationship between he and his wife. It is obvious that he will be moving alone if he makes this crucial decision against the will of his wife.

If the move is the will of God, God will work on the heart of the wife. If the husband is in the will of God, he would not come home one evening and make this announcement. They will have been praying about this every evening in their family altar time.

If the man in the scenario moves anyway, I hope he doesn't try to come to our church. That is the kind of man that causes the preacher all kinds of problems.

 

Folks, the bottom line in the subject of submission is this: The Bible says that wives ought to submit to the authority of their husbands for it was so designed from the time of creation. There are several Bible references attest to that. We have no quarrel with that. My problem comes when some men (not all mind you, only a handful of immature man-folks) demand that their wives submit to their authority without they loving them as Christ loved the Church. PERIOD!

As I said before, and I do not want to sound like a broken record, if a man so loves his wife as Christ the Church then the wife will have no problem in submitting. I do not need a theological debate over this, for I have experienced this in my life many times before. After all, as Dr. Griffin would say, in our house I have the last word... would you like to know what it is? "Yes Dear!"

No, it is not like that at all in our house... I am serious!

Now, going back to the original question of how to counsel the couple in their predicament. First of all, we do not know if the couple was saved. Many people go to priests and preachers, without belonging to the particular church. It saves them money, for not going to professional counseling. If the couple are saved, the mandate to have the women go where the husband decided to go, without first asking her input is improper. The wife is not a slave, and definitely is not a public property to do with it what the husband will. The marriage is a corporate entity, the marriage is two people becoming one. The man may give the deciding vote in the discussion, and the wife ought to go with the heart and personality of Ruth (who went with her mother-in-law, Naomi, to a country she did not know, to a people she never met). But as we follow the event, Ruth did take part of the discussion and she had her input.

Preach the Word, the way I see it, the first priority in the question you proposed is not to counsel them about who is right, and that the woman should or shouldn't do in order to be subject to her husband, but the real priority is to first reconcile them to each other. They need to be on the same page of the Bible first and foremost, and definitely not clobbering them over the head to submit....

P.S. Sorry Pastor Bob, I didn't see your post... I was too busy typing mine. But I greatly appreciate your addition to this thread, because that is exactly the way I feel about the whole thing.

 

Well PTW;

I think you are leaving out the part about a wife being able to say 'no' submissively.

I agree with all the other posters who see this as a much bigger problem than a simple move.

There is no love in your hypothetical marriage and God said if the man is unsaved and wants to leave (move)....let him go.

I'm sure that's what this wife would choose to do if confronted with a counselor that is lacking in compassion and Godly advice and instead just smacks her with a scripture instead of trying to heal the marriage.

JMHO,
Sue

 

Preach: No matter the condition of the husband, the counselor should go to God first. God is the one who knows the true condition of the hearts of all involved; He is the one who knows the best way for all of them.

Abiyah: I believe! I believe!

Pastor Bob, Barnabas, and Sue: Amen!

And now, Preach and Molly, you both agreed that I was right to disobey my husband regarding something clearly illegal. What about something clearly dangerous but not illegal? Suppose, for instance, I am a diabetic and insulin dependant, and suppose my husband tells me that I should discontinue my medicine? (The reason he has could be anything from religious to economic -- the reason is not relevant here) It is not illegal to discontinue my insulin shots, but it is clearly dangerous and would very likely result in my death. Do I submit and obey or disobey?

What about then?

 

OK Brother Preach, you lost me here. What are you talking about? We had the subject of submission, now you are trying to put some words into Helen's mouth and call it situational ethics or mystical experience? You lost me there Brother! But you may have something there when you are pondering if you placed this thread in the right forum...

 

OK, PTW, but let's look at your original question.

I don't just give counsel to the woman and say, "You are the wife, you are to be in submission, therefore do what your husband says". Rather, because the husband IS the head of the home I speak to him first. I take him to the verses in I Cor 11 and I tell him that he is out of whack in his view of himself, his marriage, his relationship to his wife, and his willingness to listen to the wisdom that "comes from a multitude of counselors." Rather than accept the strengths of his wife and accept her as a valuable partner and counselor, he is acting selfishly. Then I would probably take him to the OT and have him read out loud (if he can read) the story of Nabal, Abigail, and David. In that story, Abigail was a lovely, godly woman who was married to a big, loud-mouthed, cruel jerk of a husband. She gave him excellent advice, but he ignored her. David, in contrast was a man after God's own heart. He got so angry with Nabal that he was going to kill him. Abigail went out to David and gave him advice; advice which he accepted and followed. Think of that! The king of Israel listening to a WOMAN! AND benefitting from it! After he reads the story I would say "Which of those men are you acting like? Which of those men do you think you will end up like?"

 

Preach, I was afraid you would misinterpret what I was saying. You are in italics again and I am in straight print.

Helen, wouldn't that be like assisted suicide? I am not sure, but isn't there some sort of criminal charge if such a thing happened?

No, it wouldn't. For although death is likely, a radical change of diet might pull the person through. Or possibly simply prayer. And if that example is not what you can feel confident about answering, what about a husband who wants his wife to swim the English channel with him? Or sky dive with him? Take any scenario you like -- there are many, many real life cases where a husband asks the wife to do something distinctly dangerous. Is she then obligated to obey?

You must have a biblical theology about all kinds of areas. That way, each situation falls under the revealed will of God. If you really want to listen to the Spirit, you will search the Word. How does God speak apart from his word. I don't know, maybe I posted this in the wrong forum.

Preach, the Bible simply does NOT cover every situation. Just like it doesn't cover all of science or history. It gives the general guidelines in which the truth lies. God created us all individuals and He treats us all individually. You ask how God speaks apart from the Bible? How can I tell you if you have never experienced it? It is a nudge in the heart, a sudden thought that is definitely not yours, sometimes even identical words of advice from different people. Always it is confirmed biblically, but rarely explicitly stated biblically. God stuck the thought in my head 'black widow', as I related in the praise forum ("A Warning"), when I was getting wood in the garage recently for our wood stove. It has been AGES since I have seen a black widow around here and the thought could not have been farther from my mind at that moment, for I was planning the next days' activities mentally. And my own thoughts were suddenly and strongly interrupted by the words 'black widow.' And there, under the next log I was to pick up (I had put gloves on in obedience to the thought), was a giant mother of a black widow. They are shy, and as she attempted to hide again, I took the broom and 'bristled' her into a lot of interconnected holes. If she had bitten me, with my reactions to things, I probably would have died.

Yes, God talks to us individually. I can be working outside, leaving Chris inside with his Barney and a music tape going. I have learned that I can actually ask the Lord, while I am working, "Is Chris OK?" and there will either be peace in my heart or a restlessness, indicating I need to check up on my son. I cannot even count the number of times I have been led to do or say exactly what was needed in a situation by an intelligence that was definitely NOT my own! And I have learned to listen.

Theology is our mental grasp of the meaning of Scripture. But Christianity is a relationship with God Himself, through Jesus Christ, by the power and grace of the Holy Spirit. It is real, it is daily, and it is the joy of my life. At no time is the Bible ever contradicted -- and that is how I have learned to test whether or not it is my imagination (which frequently goes running off on its own tangent) or something from God. There is a DISTINCT difference!

And yes, there is a headship in the house that belongs to the husband. But bringing a couple around to that point where the wife feels safe enough with her husband to obey him can take a bit of counseling. Many husbands do not know how necessary it is for a woman to feel safe with her husband. Whether or not the husband is saved -- for there are plenty of pagan husbands out there who seem to care more for their wives than a lot of the Christian husbands I have seen. And a wife whose husband truly and deeply cares for her is going to feel safe with his decisions, and she is far more likely to be willing to follow with her whole heart. And that attitude in the following is much to be desired over some kind of legalistic "OK, if you say so!" accompanies by a bitterness or quiet, subtle sadnesses. It is not just legalistic submission which the Lord wants, but the joyful, confident agreement of the woman in matters the husband is dealing with. This is what makes a marriage. The attitude of the heart is everything. Thus, the counsellor in your imaginary scenario needs to do a lot of work to find out what is causing the woman to oppose her husband and why he is not paying attention to her.


Please remember that this is theological and not personal. I think you are demonstrating that you do use situational ethics by your choice to not take a position and instead allow each circumstance to determine what should happen.

Jesus healed on the Sabbath, Preach, because He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is Lord of my life, too, and thus is free to do with me as He will. I know to love Him. I also know to love my neighbor. If anyone comes to me for counseling, my first order from my Lord is to love them, for on THIS hangs everything else. Thus, the situation has a great deal to do with HOW they are to be loved, not THAT they will be loved. The second is the command. The first is the leading of the Lord in the situation at hand.

And I know you don't like me to use real life examples instead of imaginary scenarios, but my life is real life, and God has worked in this real life in real ways that are not limited to my imagination of what He can do! In the same way, when my students in home school were in jr. hi, their reading for at least one full year was ONLY true life biographies and autobiographies of men and women of God. I wanted them to see how God REALLY works in the world and in peoples' lives, and not just how people think He should work in imaginary scenarios. It is the same here. What I have experienced is real and is God's application of Himself and His truth in my own life. It is the story I know best; therefore it is the story I tell.

There is a reason why some people are set apart as teachers and preachers. They are to be able to "rebuke with all authority". In order to do so, they need to know the word and be diligent in theology. If all that mattered were people that did not have theology and instead sought some mystical experience, then anyone could be a teacher/preacher. Such is not the case though.

Well, I have been told a number of times I have the gift of teaching. On the other hand, there is no reason at all why anyone who had a solid relationship with the Lord and knew Bible could not counsel the couple in your opening post. What you call mystical experiences are a reference, I think, to the fact that I do have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and depend on Him to guide my days, all of which are numbered in His mind and none of which are mentioned in the Bible!