What you believe, and why

[Michael Wrenn]

You have mistaken that writer for God! He is not God. You have mistaken his writings for God's Word. His writings are not God's Word. You ignore that the metaphor of "head" is ALWAYS in a context of SUBMISSION including what truth that writer emphasized at the expense of submission.

Biblical headship is a loving nurturing servant spirit that God commands submission unto even though those in the position of headship do not demand submission as that spirit is contrary to Biblical headship, althoug it is not contrary for those in that position to "take the oversight" since God has given them that responsibility.

That's about the most foolish thing I've ever seen from you.

 

[The Biblicist]

Your statements about the Bible and inner light are not true with regard to FUM and the Evangelical Friends Church International. And in the latter, some do practice believer's baptism and communion; others take the position of the Salvation Army: they will do it if the believer requests it, though it is not required for membership.

Here is there Constitution and articles of faith and see if you can even find the mention of water baptism or the Lord's Supper in their articles. Attempt to find either on any number of their websites.

http://firstdenverfriendschurch.org/PDF_Files/CONSTITUTION.pdf

 

[billwald]

Only two possible general answers to the IP:

1. It was predestined.

or

2. One "believes in" the best answer to the available evidence as one understands the evidence. The null case seems to be what you have learned as a child. That is what you "believe in" until better evidence comes along.

 

[saturneptune]

Were you raised in a Christian home? If so, do you think this had a major influence on what you believe today? If not, how and why did you become a Christian?

Yes, I was raised in a Christian home, by two Christian parents. They were members of the Presbyterian Church of America. It had a major influence in what I believe today.

Why are you in the denomination you are in now? Were you always part of that denomination? If not, what made you change?

I am the denomination where I am not (SBC) because that is where the Lord has lead me. Specifically, the county I now live in had no PCA churches. I started attending a SB church. At first, the differences were very stark to me, the shouting amen, raising hands, and the pastor raising a voice from the pulpit. As time went on, I felt more comfortable. The specific beliefs that caused me to change were doctrine about baptism, autonomous local churches with no heirarchy. and congregational form of government.[/quote]

Is your belief based on head knowledge, heart knowledge, or a combination? What kind of personal experiences have you had of God? Has God spoken to your heart? How do you know? Have you heard an audible voice? Does your belief come solely from being convinced of the Christian faith by reading the scriptures?

Mine is heart knowledge. My head knowledge comes from reading the Bible, sermons, and attending Bible studies. God has spoken to my heart in each of the above changes. No, I cannot say I have ever heard an audible voice, although those who say they have is a great testimony that God talks to us in different manners. He speaks mostly through His Son. My belief comes from Scripture and the presence of the Holy Spirit in me. One of the times I feel the Lord the closest is in a worship service where the Spirit is moving and working on hearts.

Have any of you ever been atheists or agnostics? If so, what changed your mind?

No

Was your coming to faith a slow and gradual process, or dramatic and sudden? Have any of you believed since childhood, or never remember a time when you didn't believe?

I would say gradually, with spurts of growth. I have believed that there was a Creator since earliest memory, and know exactly when the Lord saved me.

Why are you a Christian and not some other religion? What answer would you give to a person of another religion, or no religion? What if you were asked how you know that your religion is correct and true and none other is?

Of course, the main influence on being a Christian is how I was raised. However, Christianity is the only religion where a personal, loving God seeks a relationship with each individual. He is intersted in our eternal destiny, and has provided all the means to achieve such. He is not a nebulous all in one impersonal life force. If asked why I am a Christian, my answer is that my hope rests in the death, burial and Ressurection of Jesus Christ.

Why do you think there are so many denominations, all claiming the Bible as the final authority, or the source book of the faith? If someone asked you how to determine which was the "truest" one, what would you say?

I think there are so many denominations since Acts because everyone thinks they are right ane everyone else is wrong, instead of going by Scripture and listening to the Spirit. Also, there are different denominations because we make minor issues major ones. If someone were to ask my why Baptist is the closest to what God would have, I would say that it most closely reflects a New Testement church as defined in Scripture.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Here is there Constitution and articles of faith and see if you can even find the mention of water baptism or the Lord's Supper in their articles. Attempt to find either on any number of their websites.

http://firstdenverfriendschurch.org/PDF_Files/CONSTITUTION.pdf

I know from experience that individual churches do practice the ordinances, and some which do not require them will do so if an individual requests it.

Considering that Baptists don't believe the ordinances are necessary to salvation, I find it strange and ironic how they are so quick to denounce and even question the salvation of those who don't do this exactly as Baptists think it should be done.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes, I was raised in a Christian home, by two Christian parents. They were members of the Presbyterian Church of America. It had a major influence in what I believe today.

I am the denomination where I am not (SBC) because that is where the Lord has lead me. Specifically, the county I now live in had no PCA churches. I started attending a SB church. At first, the differences were very stark to me, the shouting amen, raising hands, and the pastor raising a voice from the pulpit. As time went on, I felt more comfortable. The specific beliefs that caused me to change were doctrine about baptism, autonomous local churches with no heirarchy. and congregational form of government.

Mine is heart knowledge. My head knowledge comes from reading the Bible, sermons, and attending Bible studies. God has spoken to my heart in each of the above changes. No, I cannot say I have ever heard an audible voice, although those who say they have is a great testimony that God talks to us in different manners. He speaks mostly through His Son. My belief comes from Scripture and the presence of the Holy Spirit in me. One of the times I feel the Lord the closest is in a worship service where the Spirit is moving and working on hearts.


No


I would say gradually, with spurts of growth. I have believed that there was a Creator since earliest memory, and know exactly when the Lord saved me.



Of course, the main influence on being a Christian is how I was raised. However, Christianity is the only religion where a personal, loving God seeks a relationship with each individual. He is intersted in our eternal destiny, and has provided all the means to achieve such. He is not a nebulous all in one impersonal life force. If asked why I am a Christian, my answer is that my hope rests in the death, burial and Ressurection of Jesus Christ.


I think there are so many denominations since Acts because everyone thinks they are right ane everyone else is wrong, instead of going by Scripture and listening to the Spirit. Also, there are different denominations because we make minor issues major ones. If someone were to ask my why Baptist is the closest to what God would have, I would say that it most closely reflects a New Testement church as defined in Scripture.[/QUOTE]

SN, thank so much for your post!

This is one of the best answers to these questions that I have ever seen, and I have asked these questions on other forums over the years.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I appreciate the answers I have received so far to the questions I asked. Excellent!

 

[Jun P Espina]

Conversion to Christianity

I am a Baptist since 1984 and have experienced being a member of Missionary Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, then the Bible Baptist. I didn't experience being schooled formally in the Christian Faith, neither did I had the opportunity of a Christian childhood. But the question about how sure am I of my Church, or of my truth is a query that gives me no conscience-piercing struggle of whatever nature. The Bible said that eternal life is experienced by the one having it. Although non-Christians are also claiming spiritual experience, ours is different for it is all connected to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit , if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

Romans 8:9-10 NASB

"The Spirit of Christ is in you." Your life is changed; your prayers, answered; and you experienced divine peace--the peace of Christ Himself. John 14:27

There is only one person on earth who can tell me if I am a child of God: myself! I don't need a doctor of divinity to confirm my faith in Christ, because the Apostle Paul said, "But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself,(1 Cor. 4:3-4)....Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?" (2 Cor 13:5) NASB.

I thank God He didn't say, "Let your wife examine your faith," but "EXAMINE YOURSELVES." God gives us the ability to examine ourselves, whether we are Christians or not.

Regarding the question about my church of membership, I have a simple answer: The Baptist group is just like other denominations, it has its own corner of truth. I am comfortable with Baptist teachings, although, sometimes I feel that our leaders are just as sinful as all of us. They have imperfections like you and me!

My observation with other groups, if such is allowed in this forum, is that they have also some big truths that most Baptists are so wary about. The Pentecostals, for example, preach as their "signature" doctrine, the need for the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit." Some of us Baptists believe that such a divine presence doesn't belong to the present dispensation. This is so debatable that I don't have the shelling for this war. I just believe we need to review John R. Rice's books (among other Baptist Books) on the Holy Spirit and how different are the claims of the Pentecostals on one hand, and how true, on the other hand, that if Christianity if God's, how wicked of us to stop God from performing a miracle is He so desires?

I think I'm no longer threading of the subject at hand. My apologies. Thanks.

Jun P. Espina
bythisverse.com

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I am a Baptist since 1984 and have experienced being a member of Missionary Baptist, Fundamental Baptist, then the Bible Baptist. I didn't experience being schooled formally in the Christian Faith, neither did I had the opportunity of a Christian childhood. But the question about how sure am I of my Church, or of my truth is a query that gives me no conscience-piercing struggle of whatever nature. The Bible said that eternal life is experienced by the one having it. Although non-Christians are also claiming spiritual experience, ours is different for it is all connected to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit , if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.​

Romans 8:9-10 NASB

"The Spirit of Christ is in you." Your life is changed; your prayers, answered; and you experienced divine peace--the peace of Christ Himself. John 14:27

There is only one person on earth who can tell me if I am a child of God: myself! I don't need a doctor of divinity to confirm my faith in Christ, because the Apostle Paul said, "But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. For I am conscious of nothing against myself,(1 Cor. 4:3-4)....Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you — unless indeed you fail the test?" (2 Cor 13:5) NASB.

I thank God He didn't say, "Let your wife examine your faith," but "EXAMINE YOURSELVES." God gives us the ability to examine ourselves, whether we are Christians or not.

Regarding the question about my church of membership, I have a simple answer: The Baptist group is just like other denominations, it has its own corner of truth. I am comfortable with Baptist teachings, although, sometimes I feel that our leaders are just as sinful as all of us. They have imperfections like you and me!

My observation with other groups, if such is allowed in this forum, is that they have also some big truths that most Baptists are so wary about. The Pentecostals, for example, preach as their "signature" doctrine, the need for the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit." Some of us Baptists believe that such a divine presence doesn't belong to the present dispensation. This is so debatable that I don't have the shelling for this war. I just believe we need to review John R. Rice's books (among other Baptist Books) on the Holy Spirit and how different are the claims of the Pentecostals on one hand, and how true, on the other hand, that if Christianity if God's, how wicked of us to stop God from performing a miracle is He so desires?

I think I'm no longer threading of the subject at hand. My apologies. Thanks.

Jun P. Espina
bythisverse.com

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your reply.

 

[DHK]

My observation with other groups, if such is allowed in this forum, is that they have also some big truths that most Baptists are so wary about. The Pentecostals, for example, preach as their "signature" doctrine, the need for the "outpouring of the Holy Spirit." Some of us Baptists believe that such a divine presence doesn't belong to the present dispensation. This is so debatable that I don't have the shelling for this war. I just believe we need to review John R. Rice's books (among other Baptist Books) on the Holy Spirit and how different are the claims of the Pentecostals on one hand, and how true, on the other hand, that if Christianity if God's, how wicked of us to stop God from performing a miracle is He so desires?

I think I'm no longer threading of the subject at hand. My apologies. Thanks.

Jun P. Espina
bythisverse.com

Welcome to the board Jun. I too have many of John R. Rice's books. One of his grandson's, John of Japan, is a frequent poster here, and, as his name indicates, a missionary to Japan.

 

[The Biblicist]

That's about the most foolish thing I've ever seen from you.

Ridicule is the weapon of those who are incapable of rational response.

 

[DHK]

I know from experience that individual churches do practice the ordinances, and some which do not require them will do so if an individual requests it.

Considering that Baptists don't believe the ordinances are necessary to salvation, I find it strange and ironic how they are so quick to denounce and even question the salvation of those who don't do this exactly as Baptists think it should be done.

Do you think that such direct and important commands such as baptism and the Lord's Supper should be avoided, especially when they are so commanded by the Lord himself?

 

[billwald]

If marriage is not a sacrament then why do Baptists want to control it? Or is it that Baptists want to control everyone and everything. Why not simply pass a law against going to Hell? <G>

 

[DHK]

If marriage is not a sacrament then why do Baptists want to control it? Or is it that Baptists want to control everyone and everything. Why not simply pass a law against going to Hell? <G>

Have no idea what you are talking about.
There are many people, even professing Baptists, that I would not marry. I don't call that "control."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Ridicule is the weapon of those who are incapable of rational response.

Thank you for admitting this character flaw in yourself, as evidenced by the multitude of insults and attacks that you have heaped on others in this forum.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Do you think that such direct and important commands such as baptism and the Lord's Supper should be avoided, especially when they are so commanded by the Lord himself?

No, but that was not the point of my post.

 

[DHK]

No, but that was not the point of my post.

It certainly looked like it to me. What exactly was your point? All Baptist churches I know of put considerable emphasis on the two ordinances of our Lord, but never require either for salvation.

 

[billwald]

>There are many people, even professing Baptists, that I would not marry. I don't call that "control."

"Control" as in legal control of the licensing of marriage - which should have been obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thank you for admitting this character flaw in yourself, as evidenced by the multitude of insults and attacks that you have heaped on others in this forum.

The difference between you and I when it comes to ridicule is namely that when I turn to ridicule it is AFTER I have presented evidence that you ignore and have no other response but ridicule. Then, I turn to ridicule because anyone presented evidence and can't respond excpet by ridicule deserves ridicule in return.

 

[DHK]

>There are many people, even professing Baptists, that I would not marry. I don't call that "control."

"Control" as in legal control of the licensing of marriage - which should have been obvious.

You are right. There are many professing Baptists that I would not marry either.
The Lord's Table, likewise, must be "policed" to some extent. Perhaps a stern warning is a better way to put it. It is not "open" to all--those who have not been baptized., those who do not believe in like faith and order, those living in sin, etc. The Bible makes these things obvious.

"Let a man so examine himself."