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What's a Saint?
- Thread starter Davyboy
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
There is no Scriptural support that all saved people are referred to as "saints". Letters are written to churchs and saints, etc. But, there are passages after passages that ties "saint" in with those who show fruit of the spirit and not just someone who is saved.
Stan,
Since "saint" and "holy one" are the same term and concept in the biblical languages, why do English translations of the Bible sometimes render the term one way and sometimes the other?
And is there a pattern to how Bible translators use "saint" and "holy one"?
Since "saint" and "holy one" are the same term and concept in the biblical languages, why do English translations of the Bible sometimes render the term one way and sometimes the other?
And is there a pattern to how Bible translators use "saint" and "holy one"?
Last edited by a moderator:
Jarthur001
Active Member
Indeed....What is a saint? The Bible tells us. As already been stated ...Saint is set apart one...or holy one. We are Called out from the world. We are called by God to be Saints/holy. We are separated from the world by God.Davyboy said:Stan,
Since "saint" and "holy one" are the same term and concept in the biblical languages, why do English translations of the Bible sometimes render the term one way and sometimes the other?
Lev. 20
26"And ye shall be HOLY (set apart, separated) UNTO ME; for I, the LORD, am HOLY, and have separated you from other people, THAT YE SHOULD BE MINE"
Rom. 1..
7To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 cor 1
2Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's
Jude
1Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
1 Cor 6
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Heb 3
1Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
Heb 10
14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Col 3
12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering
1 thes 4
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
1 pet 2
9But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
In Christ...James
stan the man
New Member
Davyboy,
I think it is partly because English has an unusually rich vocabulary, meaning there are more options to choose from when you are translating a word. This is due to the unique history of the English language.
In 1066 the Germanic-language speaking inhabitants of England were invaded (and then conquered) by the Romance-language speaking inhabitants of France (Normandy, to be precise). The result of this was that the ordinary people continued to speak Middle English, while the royal court spoke Middle French. Over time, the two vocabularies mixed, and so contemporary English has a vocabulary composed of both terms based on German language stock (such "holy," "holy one," and "holiness") and a parallel set of terms for the same concepts, only based on Latin language stock (respectively, "sacred," "saint," and "sanctity").
Thus English translators of the Bible have the option of picking from two terms "saint" and "holy one" to represent the same term in Hebrew or Greek. In other languages, which do not share the double-vocabulary feature of English, there is only one term, and so it gets rendered consistently, making the full range of the term obvious to readers of the Bible in those languages.
Germanic-derived
Adjective—holy
Possessor—holy one
Attribute—holiness
Process—making holy
French-derived
Adjective—sacred
Possessor—saint
Attribute—sanctity
Process—sanctification/saintification
I think it is partly because English has an unusually rich vocabulary, meaning there are more options to choose from when you are translating a word. This is due to the unique history of the English language.
In 1066 the Germanic-language speaking inhabitants of England were invaded (and then conquered) by the Romance-language speaking inhabitants of France (Normandy, to be precise). The result of this was that the ordinary people continued to speak Middle English, while the royal court spoke Middle French. Over time, the two vocabularies mixed, and so contemporary English has a vocabulary composed of both terms based on German language stock (such "holy," "holy one," and "holiness") and a parallel set of terms for the same concepts, only based on Latin language stock (respectively, "sacred," "saint," and "sanctity").
Thus English translators of the Bible have the option of picking from two terms "saint" and "holy one" to represent the same term in Hebrew or Greek. In other languages, which do not share the double-vocabulary feature of English, there is only one term, and so it gets rendered consistently, making the full range of the term obvious to readers of the Bible in those languages.
Germanic-derived
Adjective—holy
Possessor—holy one
Attribute—holiness
Process—making holy
French-derived
Adjective—sacred
Possessor—saint
Attribute—sanctity
Process—sanctification/saintification
stan the man
New Member
And to your second question, there is a pattern to how Bible translators use "saint" and "holy one". Traditionally, English translators tend to used "saint" rather than "holy one" in the New Testament and the Psalms and "holy one" rather than "saint" in the Old Testament and when referring to angels, Jesus, or God.
I believe that the tradition goes back to at least to the main English Protestant Bible, the King James Version (KJV), which was first published in A.D. 1611.
There are 36 occurrences of the word "saint" (or "saints") in the KJV Old Testament, compared to 62 occurrences of it in the New Testament. Of those in the Old Testament, 21 of them occur in the book of Psalms, which was sung by the congregation in Church of England services. This is significant because congregations would sing the Psalms in reference to themselves, identifying with the people spoken of in the Psalms and making these prayers their own, applying these passages to themselves directly, as with the New Testament (the rest of the Old Testament being "Old Covenant" and thus only indirectly applicable to New Testament believers).
That means that, when the modern Christians were expected to directly apply a passage of Scripture to themselves-either in the New Testament, because it governs the Christian age, or in the Psalms, because Christians prayed these in church-the overwhelming preference was for the term "saint," with a total of 83 occurrences (the New Testament plus Psalms), compared to only 15 when the audience was not expected to directly apply the Scripture to themselves (the rest of the Old Testament).
The mirror image of this occurred with the term "holy one" (or "holy ones"). This occurred 46 times in the KJV Old Testament compared to only six in the New Testament. Of the Old Testament occurrences, only six were in the book of Psalms, and every one of those was a reference to God or the Messiah, except for one reference to David. Of the six occurrences in the New Testament, five were references to Jesus and one was a reference to God.
The term "holy one" was thus never used when the audience was expected to apply it directly to themselves; "saint" was always used instead.
The rule was thus: If the audience is expected to apply the passage to themselves, use "saint," otherwise use "holy one," and if it is a reference to God or Christ be especially sure to always use "Holy One" instead of "Saint."
This tradition is still present in modern Protestant Bible versions. The Revised Standard Version and the New International Version have very similar term counts.
I believe that the tradition goes back to at least to the main English Protestant Bible, the King James Version (KJV), which was first published in A.D. 1611.
There are 36 occurrences of the word "saint" (or "saints") in the KJV Old Testament, compared to 62 occurrences of it in the New Testament. Of those in the Old Testament, 21 of them occur in the book of Psalms, which was sung by the congregation in Church of England services. This is significant because congregations would sing the Psalms in reference to themselves, identifying with the people spoken of in the Psalms and making these prayers their own, applying these passages to themselves directly, as with the New Testament (the rest of the Old Testament being "Old Covenant" and thus only indirectly applicable to New Testament believers).
That means that, when the modern Christians were expected to directly apply a passage of Scripture to themselves-either in the New Testament, because it governs the Christian age, or in the Psalms, because Christians prayed these in church-the overwhelming preference was for the term "saint," with a total of 83 occurrences (the New Testament plus Psalms), compared to only 15 when the audience was not expected to directly apply the Scripture to themselves (the rest of the Old Testament).
The mirror image of this occurred with the term "holy one" (or "holy ones"). This occurred 46 times in the KJV Old Testament compared to only six in the New Testament. Of the Old Testament occurrences, only six were in the book of Psalms, and every one of those was a reference to God or the Messiah, except for one reference to David. Of the six occurrences in the New Testament, five were references to Jesus and one was a reference to God.
The term "holy one" was thus never used when the audience was expected to apply it directly to themselves; "saint" was always used instead.
The rule was thus: If the audience is expected to apply the passage to themselves, use "saint," otherwise use "holy one," and if it is a reference to God or Christ be especially sure to always use "Holy One" instead of "Saint."
This tradition is still present in modern Protestant Bible versions. The Revised Standard Version and the New International Version have very similar term counts.
stan the man
New Member
I might say to myself, why does this tradition exist?
The obvious explanation is that it a result of the controversies over the term "saint" following the advent of Protestantism. The tendency displayed in the above rule is to eliminate talk of saints in Scripture except in connection with living Christians, and to insist upon it there. It is thus a deliberate manipulation of the translation of the biblical texts in order to take a slap at the Catholic view of and language concerning saints.
The obvious explanation is that it a result of the controversies over the term "saint" following the advent of Protestantism. The tendency displayed in the above rule is to eliminate talk of saints in Scripture except in connection with living Christians, and to insist upon it there. It is thus a deliberate manipulation of the translation of the biblical texts in order to take a slap at the Catholic view of and language concerning saints.
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Hope of Glory
New Member
Romans 1:7 and 1 Corinthians 1:2 do not contain "called to be saints"; it is simply "called saints". In other words, they are what they are called. When you see the italics in the KJV, it means that it's something that doesn't exist in the manuscripts, and was added by the translators. In 1 Corinthians 1:2, it is to the saints and to all those who call upon the name of the Lord. The Bible distinguishes between the two; one is a subset of the other.
Good post James :thumbs:Jarthur001 said:Indeed....What is a saint? The Bible tells us. As already been stated ...Saint is set apart one...or holy one. We are Called out from the world. We are called by God to be Saints/holy. We are separated from the world by God.
In Christ...James