Whats the beef between RCC and Baptist anyway?

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Considering Prayer is a conversation between two parties, or one seeking from another, I would have to say that visions are not necessarily the medium for prayer to take place.

The man from Macedonia couldn't exactly speak face to face with Paul. God allowed the vision to take place instead.

The one seen "praying" was most likely asleep too since they were in the same time zone.

Assumption.

In all likelihood, God was telling Paul to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

True, but God didn't simply tell him. He showed him a man asking him.

Isn't that more fitting than a gentile praying specifically to Paul?

Maybe, but scripture still shows a gentile "praying" specifically to Paul to accomplish this. Interesting, huh.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Carson Weber,

Glad you are back safe from your vacation experience; now back to the studies I guess.

Ray said-- "The fact that God is always omniscient {knowing everything that is happening all the time} makes prayers to saints including Mary the mother of our Lord superfluous."

Carson said, And you know what? It also makes any prayer of petition that we say, even to God, superfluous, for he knows our needs before we ask for them.

Ray is saying, 'Carson I believe you are right here. God sees and knows everything that is going on in our lives and around the world all at the same time. Jesus does know our needs before we ask Him. Sometimes He has interveined in my life when I did not have time to even say, Jesus help me. How about in your life. The fact is that we need Him infinitely more, perhaps, than He needs us, even though we are the 'apple of His eyes.' [Deut. 32:10; Psalm 17:8; Zechariah 2:8]

Carson said, Thou dost protest too much, my friend.

Ray is saying, That is why they call us Protest (ants) because we have to speak to so much Roman Catholic erroneous theology and practical application of said doctrines. I sure wish we did not have to keep bringing you back to the words of Christ.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brian T,

I am not claiming that I have all of the thoughts conveyed in Acts 16:8-10. I am not sure what is meant by the Holy Spirit forbidding them to go to Asia. How did the Holy Spirit convey this truth to them? [vs. 6] What I see in this passage is that when they came to Troas, apparently a man was praying to the Lord to send disciples to Macedonia to help with ministry. God seeing the need, brought a vision to Paul and Paul saw the man in Macedonia praying to the Lord about their need. God is dealing with the situation brought a night vision to Paul and he took it as a directive from Almighty God to go to Macedonia to preach the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Brian T,

I am not claiming that I have all of the thoughts conveyed in Acts 16:8-10. I am not sure what is meant by the Holy Spirit forbidding them to go to Asia. How did the Holy Spirit convey this truth to them? [vs. 6] What I see in this passage is that when they came to Troas, apparently a man was praying to the Lord to send disciples to Macedonia to help with ministry. God seeing the need, brought a vision to Paul and Paul saw the man in Macedonia praying to the Lord about their need. God is dealing with the situation brought a night vision to Paul and he took it as a directive from Almighty God to go to Macedonia to preach the Gospel of Christ.

That's how I see it too, Ray. There was no intercessor, like Paul for example, who "heard" the gentile's prayer and acted in the place of God. Just like Peter's Vision of the sheet full of forbidden food, but Paul received a Vision from God of a man pleading for someone to bring the Gospel to them, and the Holy Spirit impressed on Paul the need for him to answer that call from God.

It should be noted that prayer to the departed saints, or the dead, is nowhere supported in Scripture. They had their opportunity to hear and believe or hear and reject. Those who believed are now the departed saints, who are with the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who rejected are judged and Cast into the Lake of Fire never to be heard from again. What's so difficult about that?

The departed saints are not listening to our prayers, they are busy praising and worshipping Jesus as scriptures indicate all who believe will be doing.

Timed events are only applicable to this earth, not to heaven. Heaven, where the departed saints are, is eternal in that there is no time there, nothing with which to mark the passing of eternity which does not pass at all. In eternity, there is no starting point and no stopping point for those who have eternal life.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
God seeing the need, brought a vision to Paul and Paul saw the man in Macedonia praying to the Lord about their need.

I agree with all of you post except this part. The man from Macedonia was not praying to the Lord. The man was "praying" to Paul:

"And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him (Paul, not God), saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us."

 

[Stephen III]

Brian,
Thanks for your response, you've raised some good points and once again did so in a charitable fashion, for which I commend you.

you wrote:

The Bible is clear that "no not one is righteous" I understand that Catholic tradition teaches differently on this but it is hard to make a motal righteous when the Bible declares that NONE have been.

I'm not sure what you mean by "no not one is righteous". Paticularly in regard to those in heaven as Mary is now in heaven. By the virtue of her being in heaven alone I could make the claim that she is more "righteous" than you or I. As you and I are sinners and still capable of sinning more.

The further context of your comment from Roman 3:10, ("There is no one righteous, not even one; 11there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.")
is about how no one is made righteous by the observance of the old law:
Romans 3:20 ("Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."),
and then gets into how one is made righteous:

Roman 3:21 ("But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe....")

I wouldn't think you would deny Mary would be counted as the righteous in heaven. It is not necessarily that she has to be any more righteous than Moses or Peter for her to be the preferred person to multiply our prayers. It could be viewed that just as the Lord chose Mary specifically to bring Life into the world (as opposed to Eve bringing Death)through her humble submission to God's will, we aknowledge and honor His work, this "Ark of the new covenant", His "handmaid of the Lord" by choosing to utilize this avenue. And she humbly accepts her role to present our petitions without taking any glory and honor from God as she is the first to admit that it is her Son who has all authority and power to answer our supplications. She will always and only point us to her Son pleading "Do as my son says".

So it is not a question of who is more righteous, but an aknowledgement of God's chosen plan of Salvation. We feel we honor that plan by aknowledging Mary and the special role she has for presenting her Son into that plan. One that didn't just end once she gave birth to Jesus. But one that continues as she prays that Jesus be reborn into the hearts and beings of her spirtual children.

You finished with:

On rep. prayer. What you gave was interesting but was more opinion based then scripture based. Scripture warns of prayers that are rep. The real issue was the actual asking the same person over and over and over to pray for you. That aspect you both tried to address but still fell short somewhat in my humble opinion. To say there is no time in Heaven and then say that the saints or Mary listen to prayer after prayer has some problems of its own. Then there is the issue of being able to hear the pray of millions at once and at the same time beworshipping God, as we know from Rev. that we will be doing. also from the story in Luke, speaking of Laz. and the rich man there seems to be some basic earthlike communication in the afterlife. Can you hear, speak, bring prayers, sit on a throne, etc... at the same time? and not be God. The bible says we will see him as he truely is but we will not become God or have His power.

On the repetiveness of prayer I would again ask of you to consider the pious reciting or singing of the Psalms, and keep in mind the Rosary (which is what you are really referring to by referencing the praying of the Hail Mary over and over)is a meditation and a supplication. Look at the whole.
1.) a series of prayers that may have numerous requests for a variety of reasons.
and
2.) a meditation whereas the person in prayer receives numerous graces, insights etc. (i.e. peacefulness, acceptance of a tragedy, patience, humility, enlightenment at seeing in ones minds eye the Gospel made alive etc.)
My contention about there not being the confines or restraints of time is to put in our understanding something we do not really have any concrete way of knowing. Afterall we don't even really know how it is the saints receive or present our prayers see for example the following:

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty­four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

My point is your guess as to how things work in heaven is as good as mine.

God Bless
Stephen

 

[3AngelsMom]

In defense of those who are accused of 'hating' the CC.

We don't hate you. We love you. We pray for you.

We hate what you teach. We hate the lies that the devil propigates through you.

We hate that he is winning his battle through you.

We know who is going to lose, and we do not want for you to be on the losing side.

Again, we pray for you.

God Bless,
Kelly

 

[Frank]

Stephen:
I stated without ambiguity I was not a protestant. I am neither Protestant, Catholic or Jew. I am simply a Christian. Is.62:2;56:5, Acts 11:26. So, I have responded with irrefutable evidence as to the matters pertaining to this issue.

The Bible stands as the authority of God in ALL MATTERS OF FAITH. The evidence to this is the following:

1. The CONTENTS of the inspired text are harmonious and without contradiction. If this is not the case, please provide EVIDENCE that refutes the internal evidence of the document that so states. I.e. By a friendly or hostile eye witness to the falsehood or reliable evidence by two or more witnesses. This is required by God as per II Cor. 13:1,2.

2. The CONFIRMATION BY THE MIRACULOUS POWER is irrefutable. If not, please provide the evidence for your contention. see number 1.

3. CHRIST claims ALL AUTHORITY. MAT.. 28:18-20. This is CONFIRMED BY WITNESSES AND GOD. See. MAT. 17:1-6, MK.. 9:7. If this is not the case, please provide evidence that rebutts this evidence.

4. CHRIST TAUGHT THE DIVINE WILL OF GOD. John 10:18-38; 17:17, Luke 4:18-21. If this is not the case, provide the evidence.

5. CHRIST PREDICTED HIS OWN DEATH. Mark 9:31.

6. CHRIST PREDICTED THE LOCATION OF HIS DEATH. Mark 10:33.

7. CHRIST PREDICTED WHO DELIVER HIM UP TO BE CRUCIFIED. MK.10:33.

8. CHRIST PREDICTED HIS RESURRECTION. JOHN 2:19; 3;13, LUKE 9:22.

9. CHRIST PREDICTED THE COMING OF THE CHURCH DURING THE DAYS OF THE ROMAN KINGS. MARK 9:1, MAT.2:1-3, LUKE 2:1,ACTS 2:38-47,12:1,2.

10. CHRIST REVEALED FACTS ABOUT OTHERS THAT DEITY COULD ONLY KNOW. JOHN 4:15-19,MT. 26: 69- 75.

11. THE VERACITY OF THESE PROOFS ARE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF WITNESSES. THIS INCLUDES BOTH FRIENDLY AND HOSTILE.

12. THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE AUTHORATATIVE NEW TESTAMENT AND CHRIST IS VERIFIED BY THE MIRACULOUS POWER AND EYEWITNESSES OF THESE THINGS. II PET.1:15-21.

13. THE PHYSICAL PENMAN OF THE SCRIPTURES NEVER CLAIMED THE WRITINGS AND TEACHINGS WERE FROM ANY OTHER SOURCE... ONLY GOD. I COR. 14:37, REV. 1:11.

14. CHRIST PROVED HIS AUTHORITY AND POWER BY HIS FULFILLEMT OF THE OLD LAW. I PET. 2:21- 25.

15. CHRIST PROVED HE HAD ALL AUTHORITY BY HIS MIRACULOUS POWER. MARK 2: 5- 12. If this is not the case, please see 1,2,3,4.

The verification of the above are either noted in the body of each item or are found in the following:
Mat. 27,28, John 18,19.

The contents of the bible are complete, perfect and sufficient for the spirtual needs of man. This is the case as per eyewitnesses, iirefutable miraculous power, the testimony of hostile and friendly witnesses, and the seal of the Holy Spirit and Almighty God. II Tim. 3:16,17.

 

[Stephen III]

Frank,

You've written:

I stated without ambiguity I was not a protestant. I am neither Protestant, Catholic or Jew. I am simply a Christian. Is.62:2;56:5, Acts 11:26. So, I have responded with irrefutable evidence as to the matters pertaining to this issue.

That you did, and so I congratulate you on your choice of religions. Especially since you did it strictly from reading the claims of the Bible. It is certainly a good thing that you didn't stumble on the BOM or the Koran first or you would most likely be defending its claims as being inpired by God.

But I'm wondering how does saying you're "Christian" mean then that you've responded with "irrefutable evidence", especially since once again you've only and exclusively provided ample proof from the source you are trying to support as the "inspired and inerrant Word of God". That is called "circular reasoning".

Yet, I'm more than quite sure you'll respond with more scripture quotes that only prove my point further.

The contents of the bible are complete, perfect and sufficient for the spirtual needs of man. This is the case as per eyewitnesses, iirefutable miraculous power, the testimony of hostile and friendly witnesses, and the seal of the Holy Spirit and Almighty God. II Tim. 3:16,17.

1.)Your written testimony to prove the Bible is the inerrant and inspired Word of God comes from where?----well,... the Bible of course...silly.

2.)The hostile and friendly witnesses presenting this "irrefutable evidence" can be found where?...... Well...the Bible of course....silly.

3.)The Bible has the seal of Almighty God the Father , Son and Holy Spirit as represented where?.......well....the Bible of course...

4.) We know the Bible is complete, perfect, and sufficient because we have "irrefutable" eyewitnesses making the claim where?....well...the Bible of course....

An on and on you go....getting nowhere (hence a circle)
Frank, I don't mean to sound like I'm picking on you, as I've asked over and over some simple questions that neither you nor anyone else can answer.
I'll bold it here so you can see it plain and simple:

The original KJV Bible had the deutercanonicals included within it. They were subsequently removed. Which issuing committee was led by the Holy Spirit, the one that included or excluded the books AND HOW DO YOU KNOW?

On the topic of referring to yourself as a "Christian" rather than a Protestant, my apologies. However, I think if you trace your spirtual lineage back you would indeed find that you are indeed descended from those that "protested" the Catholic Church and hence were called Protestants.
But, if you prefer the romantic version and would prefer to trace your lineage back to Ignatius of Antioch who is credited with coining the term "Christian" be prepared for the consequences. As Ignatius of Antioch is credited with coining another term for the Christian Church. Namely "CATHOLIC"

God Bless
Stephen

 

[Stephen III]

3Am

In defense of those who are accused of 'hating' the CC.

We don't hate you. We love you. We pray for you.

We hate what you teach. We hate the lies that the devil propigates through you.

We hate that he is winning his battle through you.

We know who is going to lose, and we do not want for you to be on the losing side.

Again, we pray for you.

God Bless,
Kelly Thanks

Thanks so much for the kind and charitable encouragements. It's people like you that God has a "special place" for. Say HELLo to all your other SDA's, for me when you get there.
Oh, ...and we'll pray for you too!

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
In defense of those who are accused of 'hating' the CC.

We don't hate you. We love you. We pray for you.

We hate what you teach. We hate the lies that the devil propigates through you.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, One in Being with the Father
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven:
by the power of the holy spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day, He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

The devil made me write that!

 

[Frank]

Stephen:
If what has been posted is not irrefutable, please do the honorable thing and simply refute the 15 points made. The fact you make an unsubstantiated asertion that the confirmed authentication of the scriptures by divine power does not prove authority or divine origin is simply foolishness of the highest order.

The Bible is the only spiritual book that can prove itself divine through internal examination ONLY! The book provides information that deity only knew for a fact. This is butressed by the hundreds of references to scientific fact before men had a clue about the truth of them. I can simply compare the internal evidence with the fact that the earth is round. Isaiah 40:22. This type revelation of fact in the Bible is multiplied over and over. Yet, men did not know these things for hundreds and even thousands of years after God had revealed them. How did Isaiah know the world was round and others did not. The answer is simple. He knew it because God had proven it to him through miraculous power.

I say this kindly but the internal evidence of the BOM, Koran or Catechism cannot stand up to this type proof or investigation. I can simply examine the claims of the documents and compare them to that which has been proven. I can examine them to see if there IS COMPLETE HARMONY. I can examine them and see if they have been changed by comparing them to the previous "REVISIONS." The fact is NONE of those books can pass the divine test. That is how I know the BOM, Koran, Watchtower, Catechism are not authoratative or divine. They simply do not pass an internal investigation for being divine. They do not pass the muster of the 15 points validated by the miraculous power of God, the voice of God, and the eyewitnesses to these things.

If the witnesses of the Bible are wrong, then prove it!

If God did not confirm the authority of Christ from heaven, prove it!

If Christ does not have ALL authority, please prove it!

Furthermore, I have read the BOM. It contains so many internal errors of grammar, you would think God forgot how to speak. Moreover, The BOM does not claim inspiration in many places. The internal text of the BOM contradicts itself in many places. Just because some choose to believe it does not make it divine or truth by proof!! An internal investigation of the document and comparison of it reveal it is not divine. Your use of the BOM proves my point about internal evidence.
Please note the following:
1. Jacob 2:24 and Doctrines and Covenants 132:9 contradict themselves in regards to marriage. Jacob condemns polygamy and D and C commands it. I can know this is not the work of God by INTERNAL EXAMINATION.
2.Grammatical errors. In the 1830 edition, note the following: The priests was. pg 193. They was added. pg 192. They did not fight against God no more. Pg. 290. That all might see the writing which he had wrote upon the rent. pg. 506. Again, an INTERNAL EXAMINATION PROVES THIS IS NOT THE WORK OF THE DIVINE.
3. The last one confirms the consistent failures of the BOM to prove it is authoratative and divine. The BOM was translated by the gift of God and NOT SUBJECT TO HUMAN ERROR. SEE ONE AND TWO. I rest my case.

 

[Yelsew]

Stephen III said,

But, if you prefer the romantic version and would prefer to trace your lineage back to Ignatius of Antioch who is credited with coining the term "Christian" be prepared for the consequences. As Ignatius of Antioch is credited with coining another term for the Christian Church. Namely "CATHOLIC"

Stephen III, Are you claiming that Ignatius of Antioch called the Christian church 'the Catholic Church, or that the Christian church is 'catholic'? You see, I agree that the Christian church is catholic, but I do not agree that the Christian church is the Catholic Church that exists today even though there are Christians that are members of the Catholic Church.

 

[Frank]

Stephen:
My roots are grounded in Jerusalem as per Acts 2. By the way, Ignatius had nothing to do with the writing of Isaiah 62:2;56;5, and Acts 11:26. The word called in the text is a divine calling. Therefore, it was spoken by inspiration of God. Ignatius was not inspired of God to write or speak by the Holy Spirit. Internal investigation of the text does not support your assertion.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brian T,

It was clearly the vision that impressed Paul as to the need in Macedonia not a communication between the man and the Apostle Paul.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Stephen III:
3Am
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
In defense of those who are accused of 'hating' the CC.

We don't hate you. We love you. We pray for you.

We hate what you teach. We hate the lies that the devil propigates through you.

We hate that he is winning his battle through you.

We know who is going to lose, and we do not want for you to be on the losing side.

Again, we pray for you.

God Bless,
Kelly Thanks

Thanks so much for the kind and charitable encouragements. It's people like you that God has a "special place" for. Say HELLo to all your other SDA's, for me when you get there.
Oh, ...and we'll pray for you too! </font>[/QUOTE]WOW.

That was mature.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by MikeS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
In defense of those who are accused of 'hating' the CC.

We don't hate you. We love you. We pray for you.

We hate what you teach. We hate the lies that the devil propigates through you.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
of all things seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, One in Being with the Father
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation He came down from heaven:
by the power of the holy spirit He was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day, He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and His kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

The devil made me write that!

</font>[/QUOTE]You wrote that?

Oh, you're going to burn for sure.

 

[Stephen III]

Frank,
I have read your new circular assertions. However as I am heading to Lake Oconee (I'm sure you know of it I will have to wait 'til Sunday p.m or Monday to shoot it down.
All the Best
Stephen

P.S. Thanks 3am, I guess your right, as it takes maturity to recognize the arrogant demeanor of your post.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I thought it was St. Luke who noticed that believers called other disciples 'Christians' and that it first was coined in Antioch. The word Christian is not of Roman Catholic derivation. [Acts 11:26]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
It was clearly the vision that impressed Paul as to the need in Macedonia not a communication between the man and the Apostle Paul.

Yes, I agree it was a "vision". But did God give Paul a *false* vision??? Why???