Whats the big deal here anyway?

Please, you just added to "faith alone" in order to "persevere to the end." Cause if you don't have it at the end of your natural life, you must have fallen away. So you only thought you were saved, or you lost your salvation. Either way, there is no assurance. </font>[/QUOTE]GraceSaves, the assurance is that if you retain your faith in Christ you will not be judged or cast into the lake of fire. If you do not come to faith, retain or regain your faith in Christ while living this natural life, you will face the judgment because you condemn yourself, that is according to Jesus, the Christ, the founder of Christianity, John 3:18.

The problem is you believe that grace actually saves, when the scriptures that tell us it is faith, our faith in Jesus, that saves us. So, I wouldn't expect you to believe that OSAS is true so long as you have faith in Jesus Christ when you depart this life, and that OSAS is not true for those who do not retain their saving faith.

Those who die from this life having faith in Jesus the Christ are not judged John 3:18. Those who depart this life having no faith in Jesus, condemn themselves, that is, are judged already, John 3:18.

The warnings,

Though not all of these warnings speak directly to faith, faith is required based on the warning.

 

If grace doesn't save then what does it do?

 

Because God behaves toward man with Grace, His unmerited favor, man is enabled to come to faith which is the basis for salvation. Thus it is, by grace that we are saved through our faith in God.

Jesus says that whosoever believeth in him is not Judged, but those who believe not are judged already. Believing, that is, faith is what saves, and not Grace which is the enabler of belief.

 

Hebrews 11:6 says, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

God is only pleased one way--by faith, a complete trust in Him. That kind of faith is accompanied by action. Faith in the NT is a verb, It is dynamic never static. It is not just intellelctual faith. As James would say it is accompanied by works. It is genuine faith that is accompanied by wirks that characterize a child of God. They are not faith from dead works but rather works from a living faith. It is a faith that produces good works in accordance with scripture.

 

So you're saying there is a kind of faith that is not accompanied by works? A non-genuine faith? A kind of "false faith"? Is this a repudiation of sola Fide?

 

Also, Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country--a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

All these people of faith were "Faithful" till the END and God was NOT ASHAMED to be called THEIR God.

I believe that God is insulted when people who let go of the faith for years say that He the their GOD. But then why hold on to something if your not accountable any more, once believing anyway

 

You are trying to separate things that I don't see separated. True faith produces such actions. Can one have true faith without repentance? No. Can one have true faith without confession? No. I would even say that one can't have true faith and refuse to be baptized, because that is contrary to true faith. What motivates repentance, confession, and baptism? Faith in the gospel. Without that, all of those actions are meaningless. Why would someone ever repent, confess, or be baptize if they had no faith in the one who called them to these things? That makes absolutely no sense.

You are making distinctions that need not be made. True faith will work itself out. Clearly, one is saved by grace through faith, and then good works naturally follow as an outworking of this grace (Eph. 2:8-10). Even faith does not save us, it is merely the vehicle of God's grace.

I really don't understand what is so hard to comprehend. Real faith will produce good works. If someone says they have faith and have no works and their life bears no testimony to that faith, I would definitely call on that one to examine whether he is in the faith (2 Cor. 13:5). I am not saying the works save or that we must do works to keep our salvation. Works are a natural expression and working out of that salvation. We were created to walk in good works in Christ Jesus.

God Bless,
Neal

 

Yelsew, so in other words you mean grace doesn't save yet without grace nobody is saved.

 

Yelsew, you have invented a new definition for OSAS. Of course this is the stuff of Protestantism. </font>[/QUOTE]Would you care to defend OSAS where a person is saved for believing once and not continuously?

OSAS applies only to those who are become believers and remain so until death. That is, their "faith condition" at physical death is steadfastly fixed on Jesus since first believing.

What do you make of the parable of the sower? The seed is all good seed, but the ground varies in quality. The seed produces abundantly in good ground, sprouts but is choked out in weedy ground, sprouts but dies out in rocky ground, and does not germinate in hard ground. The seed is faith in God, and it falls on all the types of ground, but only produces in abundance in good ground. that which falls on hard ground never even gets a chance because it does not germinate. That which falls on rocky ground does not receive sufficient nourishment to live so it dies out, and come harvest time there is nothing to harvest. That which falls on weedy ground grows but gets choked out by the weeds so there is not much left to harvest. Only the seed that falls on good ground grows to maturity and produces an abundant crop for harvesting.

God is the sower, spreading His seed indiscriminately on all ground, God is also the Reaper that collects the harvest. So to the best of my ability to read the scriptures God's intent is for us, the various types of ground, to accept the seed he plants and at the appointed time He will harvest the results from his sowing. If we do not produce, there is nothing for God to reap. Whereas if we produce abundantly there is much for God to reap and he does so happily. He wastes no time on the hard ground, the rock ground and little time on the weedy ground, there is no profit in doing so. He occupies the good ground and nurtures the crop to harvest.

OSAS depends entirely on the type of ground we are. We can grow the seeds into plants so long as we are "being stroked", that is nurtured with plenty of life giving water, and induced nutrients, but the first heat that comes our way kills off our faith and we die, not necessarily physical death, but our faith dies. OSAS dies with us because there is nothing left at harvest time.

If we are "good ground" we will have the right blend of nutrients, and the right amount of moisture to sustain life through to the harvest. OSAS is true.

This is not a new definition of OSAS, it has been in the scriptures since written there. Perhaps your understanding of it is new. If so, Praise God. If you are a missionary oriented person, perhaps you will not be so discourage when the message you bring fails to produce the crop you expected. Perhaps you are "preaching" to hard, rocky or weedy ground.

 

Grace is the environment in which all men can be saved. If God's behavior toward man were anything other than grace, man could not be saved. It is because God behaves in accordance with Grace that we know of his Love, and all of His other revealed attributes.

It is because He behaves in accordance with His grace, that we do not receive the justice our sins earn which is death. Without God's grace our first sin would be our last. But because of His grace, we are permitted to seek His forgiveness for our sins and to repent from sinning.

It is because of His grace that God provided His only begotten Son where by our believing in the Son we can be saved.

It is because of His Grace that His Son, a totally innocent man, took upon Himself the sins of the whole world, and by so doing eliminated sin as a factor for judgment. With sin removed from our judgment, and Works not being able to save, that leaves faith alone as the criteria for judgment. The Son told us that those who believe in Him are NOT JUDGED! but those who do not believe in Him are JUDGED ALREADY by their unbelief!

Judgment is the determining factor for either eternal life or being cast into the lake of fire. Believers in Jesus are not Judged, all others are judged and their judgement is being cast into the lake of fire. I did not set that standard, but the scriptures certainly contain it.

Grace

Every human who ever lived has an equal ability to believe in God, Jesus is God, and to be saved though faith, with is sustained, or continuous belief.

Even hard ground can be cultivated to grow life from seed, and cultivation is an ongoing process. Faith for some requires much cultivation so don't give up on those who seem to not want to believe, keep on cultivating - Praying for. Just remember that God is known to have given sinners and sexually immoral people over to their own passions, abandoning them to their own chosen fate, all the while behaving in accordance with His own Grace extended to all mankind.

No Grace is not what saves, but salvation is not possible in its absence!

 

For by grace have you been saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8a, ESV

by - through the agency, means, instrumentality, or causation of

 

For by grace have you been saved through faith. Ephesians 2:8a, ESV </font>[/QUOTE]Do we agree or is this a statement of disagreement.

You seem to be saying that we do not agree.

Perhaps you can demonstrate the mechanics of how grace saves. Just exactly how does grace do what you believe it does?

Perhaps you can provide a definition of Grace that indicates that it saves. Ephesians 2:8 does not define grace, but simple says that "by grace we are saved through faith".

Perhaps you can define the essence of Grace. What is the true nature of Grace?
How is it derived?
Who can have it?
How does it effect the one who has it?

Can 'ownership' or possession of Grace be transferred from one to another, as in, God gives us His grace?

Define the meaning of "for by grace..."
Does it mean, "by the power of grace..."?
Does it mean, "in the presence of grace..."?
Does it mean, "the person of grace..."?
Does it mean, "while grace prevails..."?
Does it mean, "Grace is what..."?
Does it mean, "It is grace that..."?

Replace "for by Grace" in Ephesians 2:8 with any one of these options and see which fits the meaning of "...are ye saved through faith..."

What is the meaning of "...through faith..."?

 

When you come to Christ you ARE "justified" - "saved" and as Paul says in Romans 3 "Apart from the works of the law". INSTANTLY - SAVED - instantly Justified. A New Creation IN Christ.

You can not argue "well Paul if that is really true - lets burn the rest of scrpture".

The reason is that 2Cor 5 Paul states "if ANYONE is IN Christ he IS a NEW creation. Old things are passed away - all things are become new". It is the NEW life in Christ that is lived.

In Romans 8 we find that those living the NEW life, saved, justified people - ARE actively engaged in "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" through the supernatural infinite power of God the Holy Spirit.

Christ "IS the Truth" not JUST a "sacrifice for sin" according to John 14.

Paul argues in Hebrews 5 and 6 that we are to GROW - past infancy. NOTICE the basics listed in Heb 6:1-2 that Paul says he is "leaving" as in "going beyond" to present more complex "meat" rather than sticking with "milk only".

In Christ,

Bob