What's the faith in "faith only"?

[ascund]

hey mman

the emphasis upon being born physically restricts the gospel message to humans and rules out any appeal to demons.

The contrast between physical / spiritual rules out any appeal to water baptism. The spiritual saves; the physical doesn't. Pretty easy. Why do you stumble so hard?

I didn't make the parallel between Jesus and the brazen serpent. It has value only when God says it has value. God said that whoever looked at the serpent would live. Jesus said that whoever would look at him lifted up as the serpent (John 3:14) would live.

Pretty easy parallel. Why do you stumble so hard?

Lloyd

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
hey mman

the emphasis upon being born physically restricts the gospel message to humans and rules out any appeal to demons.

The contrast between physical / spiritual rules out any appeal to water baptism. The spiritual saves; the physical doesn't. Pretty easy. Why do you stumble so hard?

I didn't make the parallel between Jesus and the brazen serpent. It has value only when God says it has value. God said that whoever looked at the serpent would live. Jesus said that whoever would look at him lifted up as the serpent (John 3:14) would live.

Pretty easy parallel. Why do you stumble so hard?

Lloyd

And just a few verses later, John 3:36 (ESV) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Even with the serpent, action was required. They had to get up and go to where the serpent was, regardless of how much they believed. We must also get up and go to Christ (Acts 22:16, Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4). We are baptized into Christ.

You preach a different Jesus than Philip preached (Acts 8:35-36).

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. Born from above is fine. The command to be born of water (baptized) came from above, not from men.

I didn't mean to say the Jesus confirmed one had to be an adult. I meant to say that Jesus telling an adult that he had to be physically born would be ridiculous. That is what He would have been saying if "born of water" refers to physical birth.

The wind blows in John 3:8. The Spirit does not. You are still using 2 Cor 4:18 out of context. Paul is comparing the persecutions of the world, which are seen, with the reward of heaven, which is not seen. You should know better.

Hearing the sound of the wind, but not knowing where it comes from, or where it's going, is further explained in 3:11-12.

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye recieve not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

And perhaps another look at the text of John 3:14-15 might clear things up:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus did not say, "That whosoever looks at him will live", but that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish. Belief is prerequisite to baptism (born of water), which is also required for salvation (Mark 16:16, etc).

Jesus was lifted up in the same manner as the brasen serpent was, but for a different purpose.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
Even with the serpent, action was required. They had to get up and go to where the serpent was, regardless of how much they believed. We must also get up and go to Christ (Acts 22:16, Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4). We are baptized into Christ.

There is a minimal action in faith: one must make a decision for Christ. But in the overall scheme, justification is passive as sinners merely receive God's gift of eternal life. This action does not include any works, deeds, sacraments, endurance, etc.

You error in wishing to take the minimal act of a saving LOOK to Jesus and convert it into a full-fledged system of human obedience. This is thoroughly denounced throughout scripture.

Justification is passive. Have you never done a word study on dikaioo? Only God is active in justification!

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings bmerr:

I truly hope I don’t sound vicious – but you’ve botched the illustration of the brazen serpent quite badly. Let me show you my view.

In verse 14, Jesus begins His third and last attempt to get through to Nicodemus. He used the illustration of Moses and the serpent (Num 21:8-9). He begins using the Greek word kathoos which means according as, just as, even as, in proportion as, in the degree that. So the teaching of John 3:16 is just like the teaching of Num 21:8-9. So what happened in Num 21:8-9?

The rebellious and stiff necked Israelites had once again murmured. For discipline, God sent poisonous snakes among the people to which they cried to Moses for help. God told Moses to put a serpent on a brazen pole such that that “when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived” (Num 21:9). The words used are most enlightening.

The Hebrew word for when he beheld is a Hiphil Perfect. The Hiphil stem is that which expresses the causative action of the Qal stem. The Perfect mood expresses a completed action. Hebrew tenses are not constructed about past/present/future like English and Greek. Rather, the Hebrew tenses express action as completed or not completed. Hebrew does not allow anything like the double meaning in the Greek present tense: I wash or I am washing. The idea of durative continuing looking is an easy task in Hebrew. Therefore, we must note that the action in Numbers 21 is completed. The Hebrew context for John 3:14-18 dictates a one time completed look.

Similarly, the Hebrew words for looketh and shall live are a Qal Perfect. The Qal stem is that of simple action while the Perfect mood expresses a completed action. The future in English was the KJV translators’ choice for us English speakers. The Hebrew idea conveys the idea that any one completed action of looking at the pole results in a once for all certain completed salvation.

The key to the story is that the act of merely looking up to the bronze serpent was an act of faith. The murmuring rebellious Israelites didn’t have to get cleaned up, confess sins, or offer up sacrifices. All they had to do was LOOK and LIVE! This is what the context must bring into our understanding of John 3:16. The Greek words chosen must reflect the teaching of context and be understood in the same way that it was chosen.

Your view misses the analogy to the Hebrew tenses. Advanced knowledge shows many present tense categories; such as: Instantaneous, Aoristic, Progressive, Extending-From-Past, Gnomic, Historic, Perfective, Tendential, Futuristic, and Indirect Discourse. [Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 513-37.]

Proper exegesis of a passage cannot happen until we realize that Greek words have a broad range of definitions which must be determined by context. This is why Jesus used the story of the murmuring Israelites and the serpent of brass. The Greek words are trying to replicate the idea of the Hebrew – a difficult task in many instances.

The choices in Greek to represent a completed action are: (1) the simple aorist, (2) the perfect tense, (3) the Instantaneous Present, (4) the Gnomic present or (5) the Perfective Present.

It is true that once faith has been placed in Jesus such that the results of that action continue as in the Perfective Present. But it is also true that this is a truth whether or not the decision to believe in Jesus is made. A key to recognizing the Gnomic Present is a generic subject or object. Furthermore, the general formula is ho + present participle.[ Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 523.] This is used in verses 15 and 16 (whoever believes). The KJV translators were right to use the word whoever.

Hence the general, timeless Gnomic truth is the best translation of this passage. Any second year Greek student is expected to know: aktionsart (context) is superior to aspect (grammar)!

In summary, the Greek text action represents a timeless truth such that the actions are completed at the moment of faith just like the Hebrew Qal Perfect in Numbers 21. Whoever believes just once has complete, sufficient, final eternal life. The combination of context with the force of the Gnomic Present is biblical and OSAS.

Without trying to talk down at you, it appears as if you have never taken a course in Greek.
Things would open up so much if you could peek into the underlying Greek. There are several good self-learning texts and software that could bring you up to speed rather quickly. If you’re interested, let me know.

Lloyd

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
Greetings

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
Even with the serpent, action was required. They had to get up and go to where the serpent was, regardless of how much they believed. We must also get up and go to Christ (Acts 22:16, Gal 3:27, Rom 6:3-4). We are baptized into Christ.

There is a minimal action in faith: one must make a decision for Christ. But in the overall scheme, justification is passive as sinners merely receive God's gift of eternal life. This action does not include any works, deeds, sacraments, endurance, etc.

You error in wishing to take the minimal act of a saving LOOK to Jesus and convert it into a full-fledged system of human obedience. This is thoroughly denounced throughout scripture.

Justification is passive. Have you never done a word study on dikaioo? Only God is active in justification!

Lloyd </font>[/QUOTE]OF COURSE JUSTIFICATION IS PASSIVE. I have never argued that I in any way earn justification.

When I am obedient, I don't earn anything, how contrary to all scripture. God is the one who justifies, not man. Justification is by faith. I don't know of anything taught more clearly in all of scripture. You obviously don't understand what I've been saying.

How utterly ridiculous to think that baptism is meritorious or in any way would earn anything. If there were any merit in it, then God would owe anyone dunked under the water for any reason.

The ONLY reason anyone would ever be baptized is God said so. When we obey, we do so by faith, not because it earns anything!

I am a child of God by faith because I have been baptized (Gal 3:26-27). I am justified because God declared me to be justified, NOT BECAUSE I EARNED ANYTHING!.

Of course justification is passive, no arguments from me. The only work ever associated with baptism is what God does. God is the one working (Col 2:12). If you think about it, baptism is a passive event. The one being baptized does nothing!

The walls of Jericho fell by faith (Heb 11:30). Did they earn it? No. In fact, Jericho had been given to them as a gift from God (Josh 6:2). Of course they didn't earn that. You don't earn a gift. Yes, they had to receive that gift. Was there any merit in their actions? No. If there were, then God would owe it to us today, if we performed those same actions. No, they fell by faith, after they were obedient.

Jesus used words so simple and plain that one would have to have help to misunderstand them, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." - Mark 16:16

For some reason, many don't believe Jesus or think he really meant to say something else. Many teach that "He that believes is saved, and is baptized." Peter says, Baptism now saves us. Many say, "Baptism does not save us". Just like in the garden, a "not" is added.

Yes, justification is passive, because we can't earn it, it is given.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Reading this thread has been quite enjoyable so far!
Luther coined the phrase "by faith only" or "by faith alone". He knew what he was talking! And the choice is yours to this very day: it's Romish Error and faith plus whatever; or faith alone and Gospel faith!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting mmann, "Yes, justification is passive, because we can't earn it, it is given."

Yes, and justification is forgiveness of sin - that was the issue between Luther and the Pope's men. Then just like justification "is given", faith, "is given". Neither faith nor justification is CONDITIONED on anything but grace - or forgiveness of sins must be based on something more than just faith alone! Now what would anyone dare present as worth his forgiveness of sin? His faith? Then it is not faith nor ever was faith, but presumptionb and pride.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Referring to mmann, Many teach that He that believes and is baptized in water is saved, ands not before!
Now the passage not in the least differentiates between the two things "believe" and "baptise". Here happened what Jesus commanded should happen, that being baptised in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, means just what it says, and it EFFECTS faith. The baptism of Christ - in other words - is to be immersed in the Name of God with the Power of God over and within a man whereby he shall be regenerated - whereby he shall be born again and shall put on the New Man which is Jesus Christ through faith. It says NOTHING, of water or water-baptism.

 

[ascund]

Hey mman

Glad to see we agree on justification being God's activity alone.

Would you also now please address my comments on faith?

In a nutshell, the activity of Looking to Jesus for justification compared to the activity of faith in sanctified obedience.

Thanks!
Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Gerhard,

bmerr here. Okay, salvation by faith. Who's faith? What kind of faith? Describe the faith a person needs to have to be saved by "faith only". What's it look like? How do you know you've got it? What is this faith the evidence of (Heb 11:1)?

That's what this thread is all about, right?

I can only think of two kinds of faith. Faith with works, or faith without works. I'm not talking about the works of the Law, or works of merit, whereby one earns his salvation, but works of simple obedience that demonstrate one's belief in God's promises (ie. Abraham offering Isaac: not part of the Law; not a meritorious work; Abraham just did what God told him to do.)

So what is the "faith" of the "faith only" view?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by ascund:
Hey mman

Glad to see we agree on justification being God's activity alone.

Would you also now please address my comments on faith?

In a nutshell, the activity of Looking to Jesus for justification compared to the activity of faith in sanctified obedience.

Thanks!
Lloyd

I'll answer with another text Luther capatalised on, that one in Isaiah which says: "Filthy rags"! That's it "in a nutshell", ascund, and I think we shall be in agreement once again?

 

[mman]

Originally posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn:
Reading this thread has been quite enjoyable so far!
Luther coined the phrase "by faith only" or "by faith alone". He knew what he was talking! And the choice is yours to this very day: it's Romish Error and faith plus whatever; or faith alone and Gospel faith!

Actually, God coined the phrase "faith only" or "faith alone". The inspired writer used it in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."

I think God also knows what he is talking about.

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:
There is a minimal action in faith: one must make a decision for Christ. But in the overall scheme, justification is passive as sinners merely receive God's gift of eternal life. This action does not include any works, deeds, sacraments, endurance, etc.

Minimal action?

John 3:36 (NAS), "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him"

Heb 3:18 - 19 (NAS) And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

Did these thousands/millions of people suddenly stop believing in the God that sent the plagues and divided the Red sea they had passed though on dry ground? It isn't that they stopped believing, they stopped acting on that belief or in other words, they were disobedient or unbelieving.

Read Heb 11 and tell me if you really think all works associated with faith are minimal.

Baptism is not a work. Baptism is part of faith, that comes from hearing/reading God's word. Baptism does not earn anything, it is done because God said to (faith).

Can someone really make Jesus Lord of their life and not accept what He said? Mark 16:16, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". Just like those Israelites, you may have a mental recognition of who Jesus/God is, but if you don't do what He says, you can be described as disobedient or unbelieving.

Gal 3:26-28 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This applies to the Jews on Pentecost (Acts 2), the Eunuch in Acts 8, and those in Rome in Romans 6. Why were all these baptized? Faith, or God said so.

You cannot be baptized with the Spirit by faith, because that was a promise, not a command.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered (Did what God said)

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah...constructed an ark (Did what God said). Can it be said, that by faith it rained on Noah? No, the rain was a promise from God that happened to Noah. By faith, he prepared an ark. He could either choose to build or not to build. He had free will. He did all that God commanded him to do (Gen 6:22). The bible calls that faith in Heb 11:7.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed (Did what God said)

Heb 11:9 By faith he went (did what God said)

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham... offered up Isaac (did what God said)

There are many other examples I could give. All these were done by faith. The source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). Therefore, baptism is done through faith, just as Col 2:12 states, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Is this an act of merit? No, it is an act of faith.

 

[ascund]

Hey mman

Originally posted by mman:
Actually, God coined the phrase "faith only" or "faith alone". The inspired writer used it in James 2:24, "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." I think God also knows what he is talking about.

Context rules! James 2:24 is written to believers ALREADY SAVED by faith in Jesus who are justified BEFORE GOD.

James wishes for them to vindicate (the right translation for dikaioo here) their present ROCK solid position in Christ through good works BEFORE OTHERS.

Context rules! So justification before God is by faith alone! Sanctification before others is by faith plus good works.

One can understand the difference only when one understands the distinction between justification and sanctification. Hence, this is the chief article by which the church or an individual stands or falls (Luther).

God knows what He is talking about.
It is our task to agree with Him!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey mman

You put a lot of work into that post! I applaud your willingness to use God's Word. However, your obiter dictum must be rejected for you have made two standard errors.

First, the LOOK of faith (John 3) had no equivalent to baptism. The murmuring Israelites did not have to get circumcised, offer sacrifices or DO ANYTHING else. This is the message of John 3:16. Baptism is an act of consecration to God for service - just like Noah.

Second, the many Hebrews examples are of one's entire life. Justification (the new birth by faith alone) is followed by sanctification (consecration through baptism and purification into the image of Christ).

You have wrongly conflated justification and sanctification.

The heart of both errors is a tragic misunderstanding of justification. I invite you to look at the thread on Event vrs Process Justification that I started a short while ago.

Your oversights will evaporate when you embrace biblical justification.
Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. How is it that you keep peddling the "justification before others" guff about James 2? Abraham was not justified before other people when he offered Isaac. He was justified before God when he offered Isaac. That's why it was God who said, "...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son...from me" (Gen 22:12).

Nobody but God said that to Abraham. There were no onlookers, no live studio audience, nobody from DCS with a camcorder to take custody away from Abraham. The offering of Isaac was between Abraham and God alone.

Such complete disregard for the text is beneath you, sir. Your concept of justification/sanctification is erroneous. You seem to have been taught error by those who also sincerely believe it. The result is that vast portions of the Bible can't possibly mean what they say, because what they say doesn't fit what you've been taught.

I hope all your education hasn't ruined you.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[ascund]

He bmerr

[/quote] Originally posted by bmerr:
How is it that you keep peddling the "justification before others" guff about James 2? Abraham was not justified before other people when he offered Isaac. He was justified before God when he offered Isaac. That's why it was God who said, "...now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son...from me" (Gen 22:12).[/quote]

First, Abraham was justified by his faith long before his ordeal with Isaac on Mt. Moriah (Gen 15).

Second, Abraham vindicated his justification through his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. At that time God knew fully well that Abraham was a fitting example for all saints of any testaments (Gen 22:12; Rom 4).

Third, while Abraham did not perform this before onlookers, James uses Abraham as a means to encourage works before others. James is the one who is re-interpreting history. We must assume that he was inspired.

Fourth, my concept of justification and sanctification is built up from lexical analysis. God didn't mutter as He inspired His Word. Anyone is free to examine my lexical analysis and comment. Furthermore, everyone should be able to duplicate such a small effort. This is the basic building block for theology - not human-centered presuppositions.

Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. Justification by "faith alone" is denied by the Scriptures. No amount of lexical analysis can change that. James (who was, in fact, inspired), tells us that Gen 15:6 was fulfilled in Gen 22, after Abraham offered Isaac (James 2:23). Again, there is no level of advanced Greek knowledge that makes that untrue.

Lloyd, I'm not mad at you or anything, I do respect the effort you've put into your education, and for the most part, I commend you for your treatment of others who disagree with you.

But so much of your time seems to be spent trying to explain why the text doesn't mean what it says. Translations may not be perfect, but it seems to me that if the text means other than what it says so much of the time, should it not actually say something different than what is written?

Honestly, if I need to be a Greek scholar to read and understand the Bible, then I'm wasting my time. The English works fine.

I heard someone say that "the Greek" is like underwear: it's good to support the foundation, but you probably don't want to walk around in public with it.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by bmerr:
Lloyd,

bmerr here. Justification by "faith alone" is denied by the Scriptures. No amount of lexical analysis can change that.
bmerr

Justification by faith alone is taught clearly, forthrightly, over and over again, by Scripture. Just using the one reference: Eph.2:8,9, it cannot be denied. This has been demonstrated to you many times. If you fail to believe the Bible, you deny God and His Word.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.