What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

I have almost no time lately as I am engaged in a tent crusade/Revival and beginning a new church work, so I haven't been here in a while. I most likely will only do this thread since I have to get off and look over tomarrows sermon and preperations.

Now what I love most about this verse James is that by itself (proof-text) you have a gem but in context it is nothing but cut glass. Let us see JUST WHAT the scripture says
First verse address to whom this is being spoke to:

SO... it is addressed to an ALREADY EXISTING Church. But let us see something that is troubling about this church later on:

They are spirtually (as a church) BLIND, NAKED, POOR,... Aren't believers the exact opposite of these. Being clothed with the righteouness of Christ, No longer blinded by sin and darkness but able to see, and Rich in Christ Jesus, ext...
It looks like this Church is in a lost condition or at least or at least from many of its people in a lost condition that are making up the majority of this body/church.

Then we see your proof-text:

We do know that God/Jesus is speaking to the CHURCH of Laodicea here. But then He states for the Church to, Repent?? I thought only sinners are to repent, and believers are to confess our sins. (wait a minute... nope I can't find where scripture ever calls believers to repent).
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I got in a rush to get ready for work and I forgot to point two things on my mind.

1st you said...

nope I can't find where scripture ever calls believers to repent
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just what Bible are you using? I guess i need to ask...how many verse would you like to see. Ok..for starters...stay in the passage. Read chapters 2 and 3 and give us a report of how many churches are told to repent.

you said...

"nothing but cut glass"
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When I 1st read this I thought it said "cut grass"...and I was going to ask..who cuts the grass. But I guess I was thinking of my own lawn that needs cut.

But...anyway..you said cut glass not grass...which is a even better point....being this is talking about works of the believer. Read the book of james..chapter 1 or 2....and your have your glass as applied to your works as a believer.

Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

you said...
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They are spirtually (as a church) BLIND, NAKED, POOR,... Aren't believers the exact opposite of these. Being clothed with the righteouness of Christ, No longer blinded by sin and darkness but able to see, and Rich in Christ Jesus, ext...
It looks like this Church is in a lost condition or at least or at least from many of its people in a lost condition that are making up the majority of this body/church.
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This church is in a lost condition?
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This ALREADY EXISTING Church, is by majority - LOST. Yes.

So you now believe believers can lose their salvation?
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No. I didn't say that now did I? Nor did I imply that. I said that Church which was already established is NOW made up in the majority of Lost people who profess themselves saved. I'm sure you know the verse "...many shall come to saying Lord Lord, have we not done...in your name...and I will profess to them..." Those who think they are but in truth are false professors.

You read this wrong my friend. Church means rathering of believers.
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Actaully your understanding of the word "church" is flawed. It does not always mean gathering of believers. But yes it is referencing the established church which now consists of those few believers that are still there in the midst of all the false professing others.

No where does it ever address non-believers.
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It does there, and it is quite evident. It says "...they ARE poor, and naked, and..." not that "...your works are poor, and wreched, naked (what does this have to do with works :laugh: ), and blind (this one two), and miserable (agian this one)" These speak to the condition of a person and not the value of their works.

This passage is not talking about salvation at all friend. If you read the whole list of churches and the comments given as an evaluation of their condition you will find a common theme.
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2 of the seven churches are praised and the other 5 are in need of correction and discipline. The common theme is that of - are we about our Fathers business while maintaining a right relationship with our Father in Heaven.

But regarding The Church in Laodicea, it became infested with the ungodly self-righteous religious men and was destroying the name the Church once had. The main premise of this seventh church is these believes were not anywhere near the life giving sourse, Jesus. Luke-warm isn't about fence sitting but uselessness. Since Laodicea was rich in many things save one, it had to import it - WATER. And they did from a town called Hierapolis (sp?) 15 miles or so away. It had cold mountain spring fed rivers and Hot spring baths for medicial purposes. But by the time they piped the water from there to laodicea the cold water became warm due to the desert and the hot water became warm also. And in that part of the world (specifically hot arid regions) warm water is the breeding ground for bacteria and viruses which cause sever vomiting when drunk if it has not been properly purified. Much like Jesus stating since they are neither hot nor cold, He would spue them out of His mouth, BECAUSE they ARE poor ,and blind, naked, miserable, and wretched. I can give you many scripture were these are discriptors of the unsaved, but have yet to see any scripture given to show these are conditions related to a believer.

This water issue is specific to its region and people who understood the metaphore used of them. This goes on and deeper but I have not the time to go into it right now. I appoligize for that. Maybe another time regarding Laodicea's history.

So... this is what we know..

1) All churches in the list, are churches indeed. This is not a building, but a group of believers. In the 1st century believers met in synagoues. These are believers Alan.
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I agree and when you get to Laodicea I did not say ALL that thought they were the Church were not believers, I said the majority. Much like Israel.

Secondly, who said anything about a building? I know I never did.
Jesus was knocking on the door to their hearts and if any man opened the door to allow intimate fellowship, Jesus would come into him.

2) The common theme..."works". Notice..I know your works, is address in each letter.
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Yes, works is part of the theme. And their works (Laodicea) were vomitous and useless. Not like the works of believers, huh?

3) in this group of believers, their evaluation of what they had done for Christ, is "poor...naked...blind". For..they thought they were "good", but their actions were tried and fell short.
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This is where you misread the text. It states "...they (the Church) ARE poor, naked, and ..." Establing their spiritual condition which is the sourse of their filthy ragged righteousness. It is from their condition (the majority) that they are equated to the ungodly sinner, which the actually are.

4) I stand at the door, and knock....Christ on the outside outside as in ...their lives. This of course is not a building. Yet Christ on the outside is why they are poor naked and blind. They had "life their 1st love" behind and doing things they thought were good things...but...had nothing to do with what God wanted them to do. if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Remember..this is not talking about salvation. If it were, my case is that much stronger.
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You are right that Christ is on the outside looking in. He was not in their lives and therefore they were not believers and is why they were blind, poor, wretched, miserable, and naked (everything a non-believer is stated as being). The rest of your your opinion has no basis for scripture does not say any of it concerning them doing good things but not Gods things. That is something completely brought to the scripture and interposed into to it. It is speaking of salvation here, and no, you case isn't much stronger because God is calling for the ALL to come to Him IF THEY WILL...open the door. God calls due to His love.

Allan · May 10, 2007

Matthew Henry agrees with me on this church:

II. The subject-matter, in which observe,
1. The heavy charge drawn up against this church, ministers and people, by one who knew them better than they knew themselves: Thou art neither cold nor hot, but worse than either; I would thou wert cold or hot, v. 15. Lukewarmness or indifference in religion is the worst temper in the world. If religion is a real thing, it is the most excellent thing, and therefore we should be in good earnest in it; if it is not a real thing, it is the vilest imposture, and we should be earnest against it. If religion is worth any thing, it is worth every thing; an indifference here is inexcusable: Why halt you between two opinions? If God be God, follow him; if Baal (be God), follow him. Here is no room for neutrality. An open enemy shall have a fairer quarter than a perfidious neuter; and there is more hope of a heathen than of such. Christ expects that men should declare themselves in earnest either for him or against him.
2. A severe punishment threatened: I will spue thee out of my mouth. As lukewarm water turns the stomach, and provokes to a vomit, lukewarm professors turn the heart of Christ against them. He is sick of them, and cannot long bear them. They may call their lukewarmness charity, meekness, moderation, and a largeness of soul; it is nauseous to Christ, and makes those so that allow themselves in it. They shall be rejected, and finally rejected; for far be it from the holy Jesus to return to that which has been thus rejected.
3. We have one cause of this indifference and inconsistency in religion assigned, and that is self-conceitedness or self-delusion. They thought they were very well already, and therefore they were very indifferent whether they grew better or no: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, etc., v. 17. Here observe, What a difference there was between the thoughts they had of themselves and the thoughts that Christ had of them. (1.) The high thoughts they had of themselves: Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, rich, and growing richer, and increased to such a degree as to be above all want or possibility of wanting. Perhaps they were well provided for as to their bodies, and this made them overlook the necessities of their souls. Or they thought themselves well furnished in their souls: they had learning, and they took it for religion; they had gifts, and they took them for grace; they had wit, and they took it for true wisdom; they had ordinances, and they took up with them instead of the God of ordinances. How careful should we be not to put the cheat upon our own souls! Doubtless there are many in hell that once thought themselves to be in the way to heaven. Let us daily beg of God that we may not be left to flatter and deceive ourselves in the concerns of our souls. (2.) The mean thoughts that Christ had of them; and he was not mistaken. He knew, though they knew not, that they were wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. Their state was wretched in itself, and such as called for pity and compassion from others: though they were proud of themselves, they were pitied by all who knew their case. For, [1.] They were poor, really poor, when they said and thought they were rich; they had no provision for their souls to live upon; their souls were starving in the midst of their abundance; they were vastly in debt to the justice of God, and had nothing to pay off the least part of the debt. [2.] They were blind; they could not see their state, nor their way, nor their danger; they could not see into themselves; they could not look before them; they were blind, and yet they thought they saw; the very light that was in them was darkness, and then how great must that darkness be! They could not see Christ, though evidently set forth, and crucified, before their eyes. They could not see God by faith, though always present in them. They could not see death, though it was just before them. They could not look into eternity, though they stood upon the very brink of it continually. [3.] They were naked, without clothing and without house and harbour for their souls. They were without clothing, had neither the garment of justification nor that of sanctification. Their nakedness both of guilt and pollution had no covering. They lay always exposed to sin and shame. Their righteousnesses were but filthy rags; they were rags, and would not cover them, filthy rags, and would defile them. And they were naked, without house or harbour, for they were without God, and he has been the dwelling-place of his people in all ages; in him alone the soul of man can find rest, and safety, and all suitable accommodations. The riches of the body will not enrich the soul; the sight of the body will not enlighten the soul; the most convenient house for the body will not afford rest nor safety to the soul. The soul is a different thing from the body, and must have accommodation suitable to its nature, or else in the midst of bodily prosperity it will be wretched and miserable.
4. We have good counsel given by Christ to this sinful people, and that is that they drop their vain and false opinion they had of themselves, and endeavour to be that really which they would seem to be: I counsel thee to buy of me, etc., v. 18. Observe, (1.) Our Lord Jesus Christ continues to give good counsel to those who have cast his counsels behind their backs. (2.) The condition of sinners in never desperate, while they enjoy the gracious calls and counsels of Christ. (3.) Our blessed Lord, the counsellor, always gives the best advice, and that which is most suitable to the sinner’s case; as here, [1.] These people were poor; Christ counsels them to buy of him gold tried in the fire, that they might be rich. He lets them know where they might have true riches and how they might have them. First, Where they might have them—from himself; he sends them not to the streams of Pactolus, nor to the mines of Potosi, but invites them to himself, the pearl of price. Secondly, And how must they have this true gold from him? They must buy it. This seems to be unsaying all again. How can those that are poor buy gold? Just as they may buy of Christ wine and milk, that is, without money and without price, Isa. 55:1. Something indeed must be parted with, but it is nothing of a valuable consideration, it is only to make room for receiving true riches. "Part with sin and self-sufficiency, and come to Christ with a sense of your poverty and emptiness, that you may be filled with his hidden treasure.’’ [2.] These people were naked; Christ tells them where they might have clothing, and such as would cover the shame of their nakedness. This they must receive from Christ; and they must only put off their filthy rags that they might put on the white raiment which he had purchased and provided for them—his own imputed righteousness for justification and the garments of holiness and sanctification. [3.] They were blind; and he counsels them to buy of him eye-salve, that they might see, to give up their own wisdom and reason, which are but blindness in the things of God, and resign themselves to his word and Spirit, and their eyes shall be opened to see their way and their end, their duty and their true interest; a new and glorious scene would then open itself to their souls; a new world furnished with the most beautiful and excellent objects, and this light would be marvellous to those who were but just now delivered from the powers of darkness. This is the wise and good counsel Christ gives to careless souls; and, if they follow it, he will judge himself bound in honour to make it effectual.
5. Here is added great and gracious encouragement to this sinful people to take the admonition and advice well that Christ had given them, v. 19, 20. He tells them, (1.) It was given them in true and tender affection: "Whom I love, I rebuke and chasten. You may think I have given you hard words and severe reproofs; it is all out of love to your souls. I would not have thus openly rebuked and corrected your sinful lukewarmness and vain confidence, if I had not been a lover of your souls; had I hated you, I would have let you alone, to go on in sin till it had been your ruin.’’ Sinners ought to take the rebukes of God’s word and rod as tokens of his good-will to their souls, and should accordingly repent in good earnest, and turn to him that smites them; better are the frowns and wounds of a friend than the flattering smiles of an enemy. (2.) If they would comply with his admonitions, he was ready to make them good to their souls: Behold, I stand at the door and knock, etc., v. 20. Here observe, [1.] Christ is graciously pleased by his word and Spirit to come to the door of the heart of sinners; he draws near to them in a way of mercy, ready to make them a kind visit. [2.] He finds this door shut against him; the heart of man is by nature shut up against Christ by ignorance, unbelief, sinful prejudices. [3.] When he finds the heart shut, he does not immediately withdraw, but he waits to be gracious, even till his head be filled with the dew. [4.] He uses all proper means to awaken sinners, and to cause them to open to him: he calls by his word, he knocks by the impulses of his Spirit upon their conscience. [5.] Those who open to him shall enjoy his presence, to their great comfort and advantage. He will sup with them; he will accept of what is good in them; he will eat his pleasant fruit; and he will bring the best part of the entertainment with him. If what he finds would make but a poor feast, what he brings will make up the deficiency: he will give fresh supplies of graces and comforts, and thereby stir up fresh actings of faith, and love, and delight; and in all this Christ and his repenting people will enjoy pleasant communion with each other.
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Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

I got in a rush to get ready for work and I forgot to point two things on my mind.

1st you said...

just what Bible are you using? I guess i need to ask...how many verse would you like to see. Ok..for starters...stay in the passage. Read chapters 2 and 3 and give us a report of how many churches are told to repent.
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Good one. But I was refering to individuals and Revelation is speaking to the Church as a whole who has become wayward, and should have been more clear.

As a matter of fact it is the ONLY place in the entirety of scripture where repentance is an issued command toward His people (I should say in the NT). It is not issued toward individuals even though each person individually does contributes, they allow and do things as one group by that which the Church deems scriptural. So some follow along unwittingly (though accountable since they should study to know better) and others do things knowingly but as a whole they are one - both the god-fearing and non-fearing. Therfore they are judged as one. Thereby being judged for their lack and wandering from Him and the Truth in Him, they are called to repent of turn back to Him as the whole - Church.

Though the individuals need to repent and get their own personal lives right, Christ was speaking to the CHurch for IT to repent and get itself right on the whole.

Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

Like the servent thing..Allan..we are STILL servents of God. Read any letter Paul wrote and you will find this statement.
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The Children of Israel were the servants of God. At salvation where Sonship is imparted so also is servantship. But Israel were servant that could become "friends" by living their faith to His word.

We are Sons through our faith in Christ.

the point of Christ subject is...you are my friends...and for my friends..i will show you how much I love you.
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Yes it is, and it is ONLY concerning the 11 disciples. You can not show Jesus refering to anyone else there by context.

If the statement was for the whole world, then the point was meaningless. This is the point of romans 9 and Malachi 1. Hate found in these passages is not the point. The point is love.
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That is because you have a misunderstanding regarding Rom 9 which is about election to or of purpose and not salvation. It is about Israels history.
It is not meaningless if you take scripture for what it says. Hate is important in these passages because it is directly correlary to the Love therein. Yes the point is love, but what kind and to whom and it is this which gives hate its true meaning.

Indeed. I do not deny this. But the election was not based on the works. Works are proof of salvation. See james ..the book..not me...on this.
And yet the point remains..does it not? He died for His friends..and the reason...for He loved them
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I never said election was based on works, it is based on the work of the Spirit (convicting the world of sin, Jesus's righteouness, and His judgment to come) and belief in the truth.

webdog · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

Matthew Henry agrees with me on this church:
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So does John Macarthur

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

Actaully your understanding of the word "church" is flawed. It does not always mean gathering of believers. But yes it is referencing the established church which now consists of those few believers that are still there in the midst of all the false professing others.
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Please show me one text in the Bible where "called out assembly of believers" can not be applied.

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

You are right that Christ is on the outside looking in. He was not in their lives and therefore they were not believers and is why they were blind, poor, wretched, miserable, and naked (everything a non-believer is stated as being).
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Indeed i am right. This is not talking about salvation...unless of course you feel you work your way to salvation.

The rest of your your opinion has no basis for scripture does not say any of it concerning them doing good things but not Gods things. That is something completely brought to the scripture and interposed into to it. It is speaking of salvation here, and no, you case isn't much stronger because God is calling for the ALL to come to Him IF THEY WILL...open the door. God calls due to His love.
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The rest of my statement was not an opinion, for it comes from the same text. It rest only a few verses ahead of the verse you brought up. So...so the "door" talking about salvation? If so...who can never open it?

Please do not run from this....address it.

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

It does there, and it is quite evident. It says "...they ARE poor, and naked, and..." not that "...your works are poor, and wreched, naked (what does this have to do with works :laugh: ), and blind (this one two), and miserable (agian this one)" These speak to the condition of a person and not the value of their works.
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Are you asking me or God? I do believe it is His Words. And please tell me what subject God addresses to each church? I'll give you a hint. It starts with a "w".

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

Matthew Henry agrees with me on this church:
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Who is Matthew Henry? Wait...is he the check-out guy that works at walmart? Cool...he writes pretty good. But I tell you want...I'll stick with what God says.

This is why you hardly see me post others work when it comes to Bible verse. I can read the Bible on my own. Now doctrine...yes sometimes I will.

don't waste your time on posting more men. I know what most say...and BTW..I know happen to know what Matt says too. This does not mean it is a right view. Good men get it wrong sometimes. But don't feel to bad...matt is wrong with ya.

So...what does the text say? It says they are the "called out assembly"...i'll just leave it at that.

but really this has nothing to do with what I 1st posted...its only a sidetrack in order not to address the verse

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
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so...does God chasten all men? If so, what is the point of this verse? <<<<< this is what I asked.

does God chasten all men???????????? well does He?

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

Kinda like food...is it not?
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ok..i'll answer...yes james it is just like food. You can love food but hate french fries

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

Good one. But I was refering to individuals and Revelation is speaking to the Church as a whole who has become wayward, and should have been more clear.

Though the individuals need to repent and get their own personal lives right, Christ was speaking to the CHurch for IT to repent and get itself right on the whole.
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wait now. Just before you said this was not a church, but individuals. Now your saying it is speaking to a church...and not individuals???

are you saying a church can be saved as a whole? surely not.

which is it man??

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

The Children of Israel were the servants of God. At salvation where Sonship is imparted so also is servantship. But Israel were servant that could become "friends" by living their faith to His word.
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aaaaw well...I'll pass on this one.

Yes it is, and it is ONLY concerning the 11 disciples. You can not show Jesus refering to anyone else there by context.
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yes...so your saying all the words addressing the 11...did not apply to other believers? thats a new twist.

That is because you have a misunderstanding regarding Rom 9 which is about election to or of purpose and not salvation.
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humm. lets see what I don't understand.
I do not agree...but in this case I'll let you have it...just to show it matters not.

It is about Israels history.
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i agree. and a few other things...but the point remains.

It is not meaningless if you take scripture for what it says.
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i agree. how am i doing so far?

Hate is important in these passages because it is directly correlary to the Love therein.
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yes...and this is the very thing I said.

Yes the point is love, but what kind and to whom and it is this which gives hate its true meaning.
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Ok...you agree love is the point. So what kinds of love does God have? I know one...pure love. What else?

I never said election was based on works, it is based on the work of the Spirit (convicting the world of sin, Jesus's righteouness, and His judgment to come) and belief in the truth.
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this i would have to disaree with...but we were not talking about election. I brought up romans 9 to show the Love/ hate statement that non-calvinist freak out about, is about love. When you change the word, it changes the meaning...for this is the point if the passage...i will love my people...(i'll add..through election)

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

webdog said:

So does John Macarthur
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who is john macarthur? ol wait...jarthur....its me.

ok..poor joke. what I wait to know more then anything is what does God say?

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

not to let these 1st verses get to far behind..being they were never addressed...i'll post the link again.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1006858&postcount=199

time to cut that grass. I have a few more verse I would like to post tonight...from another angle.

Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

Please show me one text in the Bible where "called out assembly of believers" can not be applied.
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I have only a minute, and though much of what you wrote is easy to refute I will deal with this one due to time restraints.

The word in scripture may refer to:
The assembly of Jewish people (Acts 7:38)
A heathen assembly (Acts 19:32, 39, 41)
The Body of Christ (Col. 1:18)
The local Assembly (1 Cor 1:2, and Rev 2 and 3 regarding each of the seven Churches)

BTW - I RARELY quote anyone but since Matthew Henry is a renowned Calvinististic theologian who was not a dispinsatioalist and obviously someone with whom my views are somewhat different, shows with much better clarity the simple bible fact Jesus was addressing the unsaved that were in the church - local assembly.

Jarthur001 · May 10, 2007

Allan said:

I have only a minute, and though much of what you wrote is easy to refute I will deal with this one due to time restraints.

The word in scripture may refer to:
The assembly of Jewish people (Acts 7:38)
A heathen assembly (Acts 19:32, 39, 41)
The Body of Christ (Col. 1:18)
The local Assembly (1 Cor 1:2, and Rev 2 and 3 regarding each of the seven Churches)

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No need to look up each verse...i see you now agree with me. Local assembly of believers just as you stated above...what more needs to be said?

as I said.. before you said this was not a church, but individuals. Now your saying it is speaking to a church...and not individuals???

Look you have jumped back and forth on something that is not even the subject.

this is just another sidetrack as to not to address what was asked...so we can pick this up at a later date.

Back to the subject at hand

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
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so...does God chasten all men? If so, what is the point of this verse? <<<<< this is what I asked.

does God chasten all men???????????? well does He?

Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

No need to look up each verse...i see you now agree with me. Local assembly of believers just as you stated above...what more needs to be said?

as I said.. before you said this was not a church, but individuals. Now your saying it is speaking to a church...and not individuals???

Look you have jumped back and forth on something that is not even the subject.

this is just another sidetrack as to not to address what was asked...so we can pick this up at a later date.

Back to the subject at hand

so...does God chasten all men? If so, what is the point of this verse? <<<<< this is what I asked.

does God chasten all men???????????? well does He?
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It might behoove you to re-read. I have not jumped back and forth on anything.

I said Jesus is speaking to the Church at Laodicea (the local assembly - NOT specifcially believers only - You might just WANT to read those verse I gave
) AND to individuals which make up this church.Are you truly nieve enough to believe that just because a person claims to be saved and made to be apart of the body of believers (by man) that 'all' actaully are saved. It is no different than Israel.

God called the whole Nation of Israel His children but in reality they were not 'all' His followers/Children. God when God judged Israel He did it as a whole but was merciful to those who truly beleived. IF all are believers and children of God who are in these Churches James then why do the Apostles speak of apostacy, false teachers/prophets, false believers IN THE CHURCH.

No, I did not jump around, you are just having a hard time coming to terms with what the text actaully says. God is speaking to the Church that it is has come to a codition of lostness due to those who make it up. God (speaking of the churches He is addressing) will chasten those whom He loves. He loves His church but this one has become over run with pretenders and the true believers are doing nothing to change it. God says to the church - Repent. But to the individuals in the Church who are lost, and Jesus standing outside their lives is knocking to come, IF THEY WILL OPEN the door, I will come in. (this door is not the same as the one you keeping trying to bring in- That one only Jesus can open - THIS one MAN must open, or did God lie) IF they will, I will.

God is speaking to the Church (assembly but not specifically that ALL are born-again) and that in dealing with the Church and showing it condition He then focuses on the individuals who are lost and don't know it (Mat 7 - many shall say unto Me Lord, Lord....) that they might be saved and added to the Church spiritually and thereby change it's condition from lost, vomitous, and useless, to being saved, pleasing, and a workman that needeth not be ashamed.

It is not a side issue but apart of the issue.

But as I stated God love is toward the Churches on the whole and deals with the Churches on the whole. He is rebuking the Local churches, admonishing them if they turn, and praising 2 of the 7 for their faithfulness. God calls the Church of Laodicea to repent for what it has allowed to happen to itself through indifference and self-exaltation.

Allan · May 10, 2007

Jarthur001 said:

Ok...you agree love is the point. So what kinds of love does God have? I know one...pure love. What else?
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God loved the Nation of Israel and called them His people, and yet we also find God who hates divorce - now divorcing Israel for it's idolatry. And then later will bring her back to Himself.

God loves Israel as His people but not all of Israel are followers of God. God judges all of Israel due to the majority of Israel being in rebellion (of many things).
God's love is Pure (as in untainted) but it is also multi-facueted.
Do you beleive that God commands to be more loving that He, Himself is?
We are to love our God
We are to love our family
We are to love our Wives
We are to love our neighbor
We are to love our enimies

Are we more Godly or benevolent than God?
We are to be imitators of Christ, and if God says we are to love our enimies that means that Christ loved His enemies as well, just as God the Father who Jesus came to show man through Him - loves even His enemies. It is pure love but there are differing aspects of love.

Jarthur001 · May 12, 2007

Allan said:

It might behoove you to re-read. I have not jumped back and forth on anything.

I said Jesus is speaking to the Church at Laodicea (the local assembly - NOT specifcially believers only - You might just WANT to read those verse I gave
) AND to individuals which make up this church.Are you truly nieve enough to believe that just because a person claims to be saved and made to be apart of the body of believers (by man) that 'all' actaully are saved. It is no different than Israel.

God called the whole Nation of Israel His children but in reality they were not 'all' His followers/Children. God when God judged Israel He did it as a whole but was merciful to those who truly beleived. IF all are believers and children of God who are in these Churches James then why do the Apostles speak of apostacy, false teachers/prophets, false believers IN THE CHURCH.

No, I did not jump around, you are just having a hard time coming to terms with what the text actaully says. God is speaking to the Church that it is has come to a codition of lostness due to those who make it up. God (speaking of the churches He is addressing) will chasten those whom He loves. He loves His church but this one has become over run with pretenders and the true believers are doing nothing to change it. God says to the church - Repent. But to the individuals in the Church who are lost, and Jesus standing outside their lives is knocking to come, IF THEY WILL OPEN the door, I will come in. (this door is not the same as the one you keeping trying to bring in- That one only Jesus can open - THIS one MAN must open, or did God lie) IF they will, I will.

God is speaking to the Church (assembly but not specifically that ALL are born-again) and that in dealing with the Church and showing it condition He then focuses on the individuals who are lost and don't know it (Mat 7 - many shall say unto Me Lord, Lord....) that they might be saved and added to the Church spiritually and thereby change it's condition from lost, vomitous, and useless, to being saved, pleasing, and a workman that needeth not be ashamed.

It is not a side issue but apart of the issue.

But as I stated God love is toward the Churches on the whole and deals with the Churches on the whole. He is rebuking the Local churches, admonishing them if they turn, and praising 2 of the 7 for their faithfulness. God calls the Church of Laodicea to repent for what it has allowed to happen to itself through indifference and self-exaltation.
Click to expand...

Allan,

(the local assembly - NOT specifcially believers only - You might just WANT to read those verse I gave)
Click to expand...

In other words, as far as your logic goes, Christ could have been addressing all the "cat houses" of the day. A cat house has a group of people...a local assembly it is as well. Is this right?

Thanks for the one line above. Kinda little jump back and forth again. Thats ok....stay put and your land in the right place.

What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

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