What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

[examiningcalvinism]

To John P

To John P,

You brought up a few verses. Here are their write-ups.

1st Samuel 3:14:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/1Sam3_14.html

John 10:26:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John10_26.html

John 3:14, as it relates to Numbers 21:6-9:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Gospels/John3_14.html

Double Jeopardy: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/cc_double.html

Concerning the point that I brought up at the illustration cited by Jesus at Numbers 21:6-9, it is true that this atonement was provided for those who were sanke-bitten, and obviously those who were snake-bitten, were the Israelites, rather than others in world. The central issue here concerning a Limited Atonement was whether the atoning power of the serpent on a standard was sufficient for everyone bitten, and that the healing of the atonement was received only upon looking upon the standard. In other words, in order to receive healing, you had to look upon the standard, just like looking upon Christ, in Jesus' analogy, but that the scope and extent of the atonement was sufficient for everyone bitten. This is what is so damaging to the doctrine of Limited Atonement. If anyone was bitten, he had the means of atonement available and all that he had to do was to look upon it and receive its healing. Now if a Limited Atonement was true, then we would have to assume that some who were snake-bitten, really didn't have an atonement available to them.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JD

To JD,

The "world" at John 3:16 and 1:29 means the "world" in the context set forth in John's Gospel. I especially take note of John 4:42 in which the Samaritans meant "world" in terms of everyone. They weren't Calvinists and they didn't know Calvinism. They were simply citing the fact that Jesus was their Savior too, and if theirs too, then everyone's, if they did what He said which was to believe in Him.

1 Tim 4:10: "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers." All men, here, clearly means everyone, of which, believers are a subset, who receive the benefits of the atonement of Calvary by believing in Jesus.

 

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

...whether the atoning power of the serpent on a standard was sufficient for everyone bitten...

I remind you of what I said, the remedy came after many had already died. NU 21:6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

No would be the answer. That is sufficed for the one's that looked there is no doubt, day or night. One other thing, notice how they had to look at the thing that bit them.

In other words, in order to receive healing, you had to look upon the standard, just like looking upon Christ, in Jesus' analogy, but that the scope and extent of the atonement was sufficient for everyone bitten.

That it shadowed the cross there is no doubt. One look at the crucified One is all one needs for everlasting salvation. What happened to the blind though? Would they have been miraculously enabled so they could be healed?

This is what is so damaging to the doctrine of Limited Atonement.

Nothing can damage limited atonement, 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'

If anyone was bitten, he had the means of atonement available and all that he had to do was to look upon it and receive its healing.

As long as one wasn't bitten before the remedy was found and as long as one could see and as long as one knew. If one is not born again one cannot see.

Now if a Limited Atonement was true, then we would have to assume that some who were snake-bitten, really didn't have an atonement available to them.

`The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.'

NU 21:6 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.

Only Israel had the atonement. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.


john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

To John P

To John P,

I'll reword it then:

After the atonement of the serpent on the standard was erected, was there anyone who was bitten, who did not have an atonement availed to them, for which they could look upon and live?

 

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

After the atonement of the serpent on the standard was erected, was there anyone who was bitten, who did not have an atonement availed to them, for which they could look upon and live?

The argument is void surely? `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' If you don't accept that as limited atonement then nothing I say will help.

I think you are trying to get too much out of the event. If one looked at the snake on a pole one would be healed of snake bite. Anyone who looks on the One that bit them will be saved is the message I get.

After the atonement of the serpent on the standard was erected...

They were cured of snake bite not of their sins. I would not word it like this.

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

To John P

To John P,

You wrote: "I think you are trying to get too much out of the event."

That was Jesus' analogy of the Cross. (John 3:14)

Are you saying that Jesus was not comparing the snake-bite to sin? We are to look to Christ for deliverance from sin, in the same way that those who were snake-bitten were to look to the standard for deliverance from being snake-bitten.

 

[johnp.]

Are you saying that Jesus was not comparing the snake-bite to sin?

He was saying that the Thing that bit us needs to be looked at. To be healed of the venom, sin, we need to fix our eyes on Christ crucified, the Snake. That's what you are saying isn't it?

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

To John P

To John P,

Just as those who were snake-bitten looked to the serpent raised up on a standard for deliverance, Jesus is saying that He will be raised up and that all who look upon Him will live eternally. My question is that since this was paralleled to the Cross, it may shed light on other matters pertaining to the Cross, such as the scope of the Atonement. Naturally, I then ask whether there was anyone who was bitten, for whom the bronze standard did not apply. In other words, could Moses have walked up to any man bitten and say, "the Lord loves you and has provided this provision so that you may look upon it and live." i feel that Jesus' illustration answers many questions involving the Cross and the Atonement.

 

[npetreley]

"the Lord loves you and has provided this provision so that you may look upon it and live"

Did you notice when you wrote the above that it differs from "God loves you and Christ died for you"? There's a subtle difference, but it goes back to the original question in this thread.

I don't believe salvation is an "offer" but for the sake of argument, let's say it is. Suppose there are 100 people in a room, and I am going to "offer" $100 to anyone in the room who wants it. Being omniscient, I know that only 10 people will accept my $100 offer. So how much money do I need to have on me when I make the offer? What's the point of covering the cost of everyone in the room when I already know only 10 people will accept it?

 

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

...scope of the Atonement...

It is limited as 1 Sam 3:14 says isn't it? You must really give me an answer to this please.

In other words, could Moses have walked up to any man bitten and say, "the Lord loves you and has provided this provision so that you may look upon it and live."

No. The Lord has told us that He does not love everyone and you cannot say that everyone that was told looked can you? This is a thing you must prove. You still haven't dealt with the blind. Moses could have walked up to any bitten and proclaimed, "Whosoever looks will be healed." But that doesn't include those who died before the bronze snake on a stick does it? You still haven't dealt with this or the blind.

What's the point of covering the cost of everyone in the room when I already know only 10 people will accept it?

I'm useless at maths nep but Jesus paid 100% of the debt for sin, it's not as if He will have the dosh left in His pocket after the 90% refuse, He has already paid out for 'all men'. When God sends a man to Hell God the Judge will attempt to take from that man as much as He has already received off Christ. Sounds like a loans company.

So how much money do I need to have on me when I make the offer?

I bet they will answer whatever 100 100's make otherwise the offer is not genuine but it's the 'offer' that is not genuine being an invention of men's minds locked into their own ego. They boast so and call us big heads for believing we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that we may declare the praises of him who called us out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once we were not a people, but now we are the people of God; once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy.

1 Cor 1:30 It is because of him we looked to the Snake, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

A thing I thought would bring a stream of abuse, to refer to Christ as a Snake.

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

John P

To JohnP,

I gave you a link to each the verses you offered, including 1 Samuel 3:14. Go back a few prior posts: http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/1Sam3_14.html

We agree that Moses could have walked up to anyone bitten and said, "whosoever will may look upon the standard and live."

However, allow me to revise my question to be more specific: Could Moses have walked up to anyone bitten and tell them that the standard had sufficient power to heal them?

(After this is addressed we can move to the issue of whether God loved everyone who was bitten.)

I can address the other issues once this is resolved.

 

[npetreley]

I bet they will answer whatever 100 100's make otherwise the offer is not genuine

If you have perfect knowledge that only 10 people will accept it, what makes it more "genuine" to bring enough for 100? There's no possibility the other 90 will take it, so how does it make one more sincere to bring more than you KNOW you will need? Obviously, these are rhetorical questions.

but it's the 'offer' that is not genuine being an invention of men's minds locked into their own ego. They boast so and call us big heads for believing we are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that we may declare the praises of him who called us out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once we were not a people, but now we are the people of God; once we had not received mercy, but now we have received mercy.

I don't quite see it that way. From personal experience, when I was a free-willer, it made me feel special that I was <something> enough to see the light and make the right decision. While I wasn't glad that anyone went unaved, I was, without doubt, proud that I made the difference between the fact that I was saved and another wasn't. Although I would NEVER say so, I "knew" I had something about which to boast.

That's as far as it went for me. Praise God He gave me an appetite for the Bible, and the truth was there whether I liked it or not (I love it now, but that's another story.)

Maybe my opinion is colored by that experience, but that's what I believe lies behind the motives of sticking with free will. Pride. You can't claim you earned anything, but you can at least take credit for making the right decision. And, since this seems to have become the Kingdom board lately, I can't help but think that it satisfies pride all the more thinking that you're going to earn your way into a kingdom that others will be denied because they didn't do as well as you did. (the editorial "you" of course)(

 

[Amy.G]

I don't quite see it that way. From personal experience, when I was a free-willer, it made me feel special that I was <something> enough to see the light and make the right decision. While I wasn't glad that anyone went unaved, I was, without doubt, proud that I made the difference between the fact that I was saved and another wasn't. Although I would NEVER say so, I "knew" I had something about which to boast.

Wow. I believe in free will and I never even considered for one second that I had something to boast about. I don't feel proud at all. Who am I that God even knows my name? I boast in the grace and mercy of the Lord who saved me, wretched sinner that I am. The free will that I have was given to me by the Creator Himself. Even that is to His glory alone and not mine.

 

[npetreley]

Wow. I believe in free will and I never even considered for one second that I had something to boast about. I don't feel proud at all. Who am I that God even knows my name? I boast in the grace and mercy of the Lord who saved me, wretched sinner that I am. The free will that I have was given to me by the Creator Himself. Even that is to His glory alone and not mine.

Well, that's pretty much what I would have said, too. What you forgot was that, even though you got your free will from your creator, you're saved because of how you used it. I wouldn't have mentioned that, either, though.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, that's pretty much what I would have said, too.

No. You said this:
Although I would NEVER say so, I "knew" I had something about which to boast.

You said that you KNEW you had something to boast about.

I said the opposite.

 

[npetreley]

No. You said this:
Although I would NEVER say so, I "knew" I had something about which to boast.

You said that you KNEW you had something to boast about.

I said the opposite.

Ahem. "Although I would NEVER say so".

 

[Amy.G]

Well, that's pretty much what I would have said, too. What you forgot was that, even though you got your free will from your creator, you're saved because of how you used it. I wouldn't have mentioned that, either, though.

No, I'm saved because Christ paid the penalty for my sin. He required me to repent, have faith and follow Him. He didn't, however force me or say "you're saved because I say so".

Choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[Amy.G]

Ahem. "Although I would NEVER say so".

You may have never said so, but you admit you "knew" you had something to boast about. I have never "known" that I had something to boast about. I never even considered that notion.

 

[Blammo]

2 Cor 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

 

[Amy.G]

2 Cor 9:15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

To God and God alone. Amen.