What's the point of Jesus dying for everyone?

[Amy.G]

How can God hate Esau yet love the world Amy?

See post #153

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Here's a thought. If salvation was never possible, then there was nothing to reject. They are being punished for absolutely nothing. A choice is making a decision between two or more things. If it were never possible to choose Christ, it's also not possible to reject Him either.

Salvation was never truly possible in God's mind.
And since no man receives revelation from God informing him as to his foreseen eternal status, man is accountable to obey God.
Do you get that??

Do unbelievers know that their unbelief was foreseen by God???
No, b/c they don't believe in Him nor the One He sent.
Their choice, according to your view is known by God, yet He still requires that Christ die for them, making salvation possible. I disagree.
Salvation is not possible for some according to the perfect knowledge of God.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

1. Yes
2. God's omniscience doesn't determine man's actions. If you believe this, you have to believe like johnp does that all sin is caused by God, and satan and God are "partners".
3. He's never wrong.
4. See #2

God's omniscience is infallible.
We both agree.
I don't need to argue about God's sovereignty over man.
You agree that God is all-knowing. I'm arguing from your own beliefs about God's knowledge.

If He knows man A is an eternal believer, then man A will be an eternal believer.
If God knows man B is an eternal unbeliever, then man B will be an eternal unbeliever.
Let me continue to argue from your belief set.
Man B is an eternal unbeliever because he rejected Christ therefore he cannot obtain salvation.
And God's knowledge is true and certain about man B.
So God cannot change what He knows about a man's eternal destiny.
Then salvation is not truly possible from God's view because He infallibly knows man B will not accept Him.

So what's the point of Jesus dying for man B?
God already knows that man B is an eternal unbeliever.
Man B hears the gospel and rejects it just like God knew He would.
Jesus doesn't need to die for man B, salvation isn't possible from God's point of view.

 

[webdog]

Salvation was never truly possible in God's mind.

I'm curious, how do we know what's in God's mind? How can finite beings understand an infinite God?
You seem to be arguing from a time element. You are binding God's omniscience to a particular point in time. God is omnipresent, and not bound to time.

 

[webdog]

If He knows man A is an eternal believer, then man A will be an eternal believer.
If God knows man B is an eternal unbeliever, then man B will be an eternal unbeliever.

You are still stating that what God knows...God decrees. This is false. God knows a child gets raped and murdered. God's foreknowledge / omnisciense didn't cause that to happen.

Let me continue to argue from your belief set.
Man B is an eternal unbeliever because he rejected Christ therefore he cannot obtain salvation.
And God's knowledge is true and certain about man B.
So God cannot change what He knows about a man's eternal destiny.
Then salvation is not truly possible from God's view because He infallibly knows man B will not accept Him.

You are still arguing from a time element. We don't know how God chooses to work within time. Christ chose not to know the day or the hour. Why? He's God...He omniscient...He should know, but somehow He didn't. We can't know why or how this happened.

Then salvation is not truly possible from God's view because He infallibly knows man B will not accept Him.

This is a strawman because we don't know God's view, or how He works 100%.

 

[npetreley]

You are still stating that what God knows...God decrees. This is false. God knows a child gets raped and murdered. God's foreknowledge / omnisciense didn't cause that to happen.

[...]

This is a strawman because we don't know God's view, or how He works 100%.

If you don't know God's view or how He works 100%, then how do you know God's foreknowledge/omniscience didn't cause that to happen?

 

[Amy.G]

If you don't know God's view or how He works 100%, then how do you know God's foreknowledge/omniscience didn't cause that to happen?

Because God doesn't cause people to sin. How in the world can anybody say that a Holy and righteous God who commands us NOT to sin, would actually cause us to sin??????? :BangHead:

 

[johnp.]

webdog.

You are still arguing from a time element. We don't know how God chooses to work within time.

Welcome to theTwilight Zone.

Then salvation is not truly possible from God's view because He infallibly knows man B will not accept Him.

This is a strawman because we don't know God's view, or how He works 100%

Why did Jesus suffer the punishment for those God knew would go to Hell?
It's not a matter of anything but justice is it? Are you saying there might be a different reality where it is just two punish two individuals for the one's crimes?

This is a strawman because we don't know God's view, or how He works 100%

If you think it that then you must pray for God to give you understanding because it is not a strawman by a long way. It is a logical summary of your illogical opinions.

john.

 

[npetreley]

Because God doesn't cause people to sin. How in the world can anybody say that a Holy and righteous God who commands us NOT to sin, would actually cause us to sin??????? :BangHead:

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man [Jesus] was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Better still...

Matthew 26:39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

Now, what do you suppose the Father's will was? That Jesus would go skipping through a field of daisies? That's the cup Jesus asked to pass from Him? No, it was the Father's will that his own Son be tortured and put to death in a cruel and horrible way. We happen to see the good that came from that. We do not necessarily know what good can come from other horrific events, but since "not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will", you can be certain that it happened according to God's will and according to His good purpose.

I'm done discussing things with you, Amy. I hope someday you'll put down the Warm and Fuzzy Version of the Bible and read what's actually there.

 

[Amy.G]

It is a logical summary of your illogical opinions.

john.

And that is your opinion. :laugh:

 

[Isaiah40:28]

I'm curious, how do we know what's in God's mind? How can finite beings understand an infinite God?
You seem to be arguing from a time element. You are binding God's omniscience to a particular point in time. God is omnipresent, and not bound to time.

No, I'm not.
I'm arguing for what you believe about God, just with a different conclusion.
See my next response

 

[johnp.]

Amy.

What are you waiting for?

Nothing.

God loved Esau less than Jacob.

Then it is you that does not take scripture at face value as there is no other meaning to hate than to detest. And you change scripture to your own harm. God hates Esau. God detests Esau. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
to be hated, detested
http://www.studylight.org/desk/view.cgi?number=3404

You have checked it out yourself and you know it does not mean love less.

The word "hate" used in Romans 9:13 and Luke 14:26 are the same word.

That's right.

The same meaning according to Strong's.

That's right but why don't you use his definition of the word? It means to detest doesn't it? Why do you change the definition into loved less? Hate means hate. Why do you do this?

Because God doesn't cause people to sin.

2SA 16:11 David then said to Abishai and all his officials, "My son, who is of my own flesh, is trying to take my life. How much more, then, this Benjamite! Leave him alone; let him curse, for the LORD has told him to. 12 It may be that the LORD will see my distress and repay me with good for the cursing I am receiving today."

God does as He pleases, He is Sovereign.

EX 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

You are unscriptural. He not only gets people to sin but He also punishes them for it. RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Romans 9:19 is a question you need to ask.

john.

 

[Amy.G]

Better still...



Now, what do you suppose the Father's will was? That Jesus would go skipping through a field of daisies? That's the cup Jesus asked to pass from Him? No, it was the Father's will that his own Son be tortured and put to death in a cruel and horrible way. We happen to see the good that came from that. We do not necessarily know what good can come from other horrific events, but since "not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will", you can be certain that it happened according to God's will and according to His good purpose.

I'm done discussing things with you, Amy. I hope someday you'll put down the Warm and Fuzzy Version of the Bible and read what's actually there.

Forknowledge means that He KNEW BEFOREHAND what would happen. God has always worked within time and through people to work His will. That does NOT mean that it has ever been God's will for people to sin, only that He knows they will. His purpose was not that people would commit the sin of murdering Jesus, but knowing they would, used that as a means to accomplish His will for Christ to be the sacrifice and atonement for all that would come to Him.

 

[Amy.G]

You are unscriptural. He not only gets people to sin but He also punishes them for it. RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

Stuff like this makes me sick.


And John, my strong's DOES have "loves less" as part of the definition. Jesus did not say we are to detest our parents.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

You are still stating that what God knows...God decrees.

No, you're stating that.
I've never argued that God decrees in this thread.
I'm arguing this from your view, which is God knows what He knows because He knows all things.
You believe that.

This is false. God knows a child gets raped and murdered. God's foreknowledge / omnisciense didn't cause that to happen.

Again, I never argued that God causes things to happen in this thread.
I'm using your argument, which is that God simply knows them with absolute unchangeable certainty.

You are still arguing from a time element. We don't know how God chooses to work within time. Christ chose not to know the day or the hour. Why? He's God...He omniscient...He should know, but somehow He didn't. We can't know why or how this happened.

This has no bearing on the point I'm making.

This is a strawman because we don't know God's view, or how He works 100%.

Let's make this really simple for you.
Does God know(not decree) with absolute certainty who will reject Him?
Yes or no?

 

[johnp.]

You are unscriptural. He not only gets people to sin but He also punishes them for it.

Stuff like this makes me sick.

What? You are unscriptural or that God is The Despot?

Stuff like this makes me sick.

Yes I know. I suppose you don't like the idea that all those people have gone to Hell just for my good so that I can worship God with the right respect and thankfulness either? Rom 9:22-24. Those who He prepared in advance for glory is the sweetest sound I've ever heard. Those He prepared for destruction are not my problem even if you think they are yours.

He tells us in black and white that He swore on oath that no atonement would be given to Eli's house yet you believe He atoned for every man that ever lived, you oppose my Father. 1 Sam 3:14.

What has love to do with Hell Amy? I will check Strong out on this definition.

john.

 

[Amy.G]

Yes I know. I suppose you don't like the idea that all those people have gone to Hell just for my good so that I can worship God with the right respect and thankfulness either? Rom 9:22-24. Those who He prepared in advance for glory is the sweetest sound I've ever heard. Those He prepared for destruction are not my problem even if you think they are yours.

I'm sure you feel very special, John.

 

[Amy.G]

Let's make this really simple for you.
Does God know(not decree) with absolute certainty who will reject Him?
Yes or no?

Now, this could be a really interesting discussion. As Webdog pointed out, Jesus did not know the day or hour, only the Father did.

What if, when it comes to who will accept salvation, that only the Father knows, and not the Son (who is also the judge)?

 

[johnp.]

I'm sure you feel very special, John.

God loves me Amy I do feel very special. Don't you?

john.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Now, this could be a really interesting discussion. As Webdog pointed out, Jesus did not know the day or hour, only the Father did.

What if, when it comes to who will accept salvation, that only the Father knows, and not the Son (who is also the judge)?

Couple of things:
1) John 6: 63-66

63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jesus seems to indicate knowledge similar to the Father's on this matter.

2) To be honest, I'm not concerned in this thread about what Jesus knew or didn't know. He was sent to do the work of His Father who certainly does have knowledge of all things.

Which brings me back to the question, if we can agree that God knows from the beginning who the believers and unbelievers will be, why does He send Jesus to die for eternal unbelievers?