What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[J. Jump]

John 12:32 - 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[DHK]

The article DHK posted was almost what I was hoping someone would post. Here the author lists several distinctives between what he sees as Baptist and Calvinism. The problem though is this. When one thinks of Calvinism, the five points or at least direct issues involving them come to mind. They are the heart and soul IMO of Calvinism, not the peripheral issues such as infant baptism etc. Out of the five points, the author only mentions ONE single point that I can gather that he would seem to disagree with, and even then he offers no alternative explanation to it. That one issue is limited atonement.

Am I to assume that most Baptists would generally believe in the other four points, just disregarding the one issue? How about you DHK? Is this the only point you disagree with, limited atonement, or do you even agree with that point? IF you disagree with limited atonement, can we assume you agree with the other four points, TUI and P?

It appears to me that the author was not expounding TULIP, nor had any intention of doing so. What he did was to set forth each Baptist Distinctive, and then demonstrate how Calvinism did not agree but rather contradicted the historic Baptistic Distinctives that we have held so dearly. That may or may not have anything to do with TULIP. In fact TULIP is not important. It is the Baptist Distinctives that are important. We measure things by the Word of God, not according to Calvin. You view things from the wrong direction.
DHK

 

[Rippon]

DHK , I am surprised that you would say that Calvinists measure things by what John Calvin said . You have been around long enough ( aside from the the BB ) to know how wrong that notion of misinformation is . Tis a shame . We go by the Bible for our beliefs . It alone is our authority -- not humanistic , worldly philosophy which many Fundamentalists/Evangelicals use for their lightly-seasoned with Scripture approach .

 

[BD17]

BD17. I see in your profile that you are REFORMED. That of course tells me you san see all of this with an unbiased eye and that you have no agenda of your own, Right?

It is unbiased and was before I became reformed. I was raised to believe man has free will, and that we can choose our salvation. I at one time defended the views as adamantly as Helen and everyone else. I became reformed while I was trying to prove that man has a free-will and is in control of his spiritual life. So if anything I was biased towards the other side, and unintentionally became reformed. So correct I have no agenda.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BD17: So if anything I was biased towards the other side, and unintentionally became reformed. So correct I have no agenda.

HP: Just BD17 all by himself, floating north from the South Pole on his own little chunk of ice. What a serene picture:laugh:

By the way BD17, do you sell bridges by any chance?

 

[BD17]

HP: Just BD17 all by himself, floating north from the South Pole on his own little chunk of ice. What a serene picture:laugh:

By the way BD17, do you sell bridges by any chance?

Actually there are many on this site with the same story.

 

[webdog]

...and many who were leaning towards calvinism because it stimulates the intellect and "tickles the ears", who the Holy Spirit would not let this doctrine sit right in their souls, myself included.

I believe is someone wants to believe something enough, God will turn them over to what they want to believe.

 

[BD17]

...and many who were leaning towards calvinism because it stimulates the intellect and "tickles the ears", who the Holy Spirit would not let this doctrine sit right in their souls, myself included.

I believe is someone wants to believe something enough, God will turn them over to what they want to believe.

See the fnny thing is I used to bash the Calvinists with the same arguments until I went and studied and realized the arguments I was using do not stand up to the TRUTH.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: John 12:32 - 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

HP: What part of the word ‘IF’ do you not comprehend?

 

[J. Jump]

All of it. Why? Do you need me to help you with it? :laugh:

Do you not think Jesus was lifted up from the earth?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Do you not think Jesus was lifted up from the earth?

HP: To lift up Christ is not to place Him on a cross, but to preach the gospel. Is not Scripture clear that in order for the gospel to be heard it must be preached, and apart from a preacher it cannot be disseminated?
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


Christ being crucified as a sacrifice was a given, not an ‘if.’ The ‘if’ was the preaching and spreading of the Good News of salvation. Our task should be to ‘lift Him up’ not crucify Him afresh, agreed?

 

[J. Jump]

HP a couple of things. I don't think the being lifted up has to do with Him being crucified, but ascended to the Father. I disagree with you that Romans 10 is speaking about eternal salvation. But I do agree that we can not crucifiy Him afresh, but that context is not eternal salvation either.

Bottom line is in Scripture we get no picture of eternal salvation being limited to certain people, but open to all.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: I disagree with you that Romans 10 is speaking about eternal salvation. But I do agree that we can not crucifiy Him afresh, but that context is not eternal salvation either.
Bottom line is in Scripture we get no picture of eternal salvation being limited to certain people, but open to all.

HP: Again, the fact of His ascension was a given, not an ‘IF.’ Drawing men to himself is indeed referencing the process of salvation. How can you say it is not? It appears to me that you dodge in and around the issue of salvation at as it is convenient for you to do so. If the verse does not line up with your presuppositions you say that it cannot be speaking of salvation. That is no way to interpret Scripture.

You say that salvation is not limited to certain people, and I say it is according to Scripture. His atonement was sufficient for all, but not all will hear and not all that hear will obey the gospel. God’s mercy and His salvation are closely tied. God said plainly that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. How is this not clearly an indication that His salvation, again though sufficient for all, is limited? I sure do not believe in a limited atonement, for the atonement is indeed sufficient for the sins of all men, but I do believe in limited mercy, (in a sense) for He will have mercy on whomsoever He wills. His mercy in unlimited in the fact it endures forever, but He has every right to be selective on who receives of it. For one, only those that are willing to comply with the conditions He sets forth will be allowed to partake of His mercy. This is indeed selective and all will not receive, for all are not willing to obey the gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

You say that salvation is not limited to certain people, and I say it is according to Scripture. His atonement was sufficient for all, but not all will hear and not all that hear will obey the gospel. God’s mercy and His salvation are closely tied. God said plainly that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. How is this not clearly an indication that His salvation, again though sufficient for all, is limited? I sure do not believe in a limited atonement, for the atonement is indeed sufficient for the sins of all men, but I do believe in limited mercy, (in a sense) for He will have mercy on whomsoever He wills.

Every once in a while you and I differ - here is a good case.

God chooses to have mercy on all "For God so loved the WORLD that He gave" - God sovereignly chooses to will "that ALL should come to repentance" for He says "He is not willing for ANY to persish" 2Peter 3.

In Romans 2 He flatly denies that "he is partial" to any one person or group over another - arbitrarily selecting one to hear the Gospel and another not to.

In Romans 10 He makes the case "from nature" that nature itself reaches out to ALL and so ALL hear.

In John 16 it is the WORLD that is convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment.

In John 12:32 it is the unqualified ALL -- ALL MANKIND that he draws,

In Rev 3 He stands at the door and knocks for all such that IF ANYONE hears His voice and OPENS He will come in.

In John 1 He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN.

Never does God say - well the reason only SOME of you are saved because I arbitrarily select a FEW for heaven and don't actually work that hard for the rest.

In Romans 2:11-16 God makes the case EVEN for the salvation of those who are so distant, so remote that they have no access to the Word of God at all but "do INSTINCTIVELY the things of God" where the Holy Spirit has circumcised the heart as He says in Romans 2 writing the New Covenant law on the heart.

IMHO -

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

HP a couple of things. I don't think the being lifted up has to do with Him being crucified, but ascended to the Father. I disagree with you that Romans 10 is speaking about eternal salvation. But I do agree that we can not crucifiy Him afresh, but that context is not eternal salvation either.

Bottom line is in Scripture we get no picture of eternal salvation being limited to certain people, but open to all.

Well here is a case where I nearly agree 100% with JJ!! Can't believe it!

Romans 10 IS talking about eternal salvation - look at the text it even states it - Salvation based on confession and belief "He who BELIEVES will be saved" as Christ said. This "not really eternal salvation" thing has to go.

But Romans 10 is very clear in the quote of Psalms that NATURE is the VOICE that they ALL HEAR so in Romans 10 ALL are exposed! ALL are evangelized ALL are exposed to the benefits of the Gospel.

God is not shackled to the ankles of the missionary or the evangelist - God the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In Romans 1 God says of those godless pagans in stubborn rebellion against God that "THEY are WITHOUT EXCUSE because the invisible attributes of God are CLEARLY SEEN in the things that have been made"!!

This is Intelligent Design TIMES TEN!

So He makes the same argument for evangelism of ALL THE WORLD in Romans 10 quoting Psalms where it is NATURE that is speaking to all mankind of the Creator.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

JJ: John 12:32 - 32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

HP: What part of the word ‘IF’ do you not comprehend?

"As Moses LIFTED up the serpent in the wilderness so ALSO must the Son of Man be LIFTED UP" (on the cross)

The Messiah was LIFTED up just as predicted and hence the SAVED group of saints you see in Heb 11 PRE-Cross result from the gift and grace flowing back in time from the Cross to Adam!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Mark 16:16: “He who BELIEVES and is baptized shall be saved”

For infant baptism it would be “He who is baptized is saved EVEN if he does not believe”

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -
Acts 26
16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes[/b] so that they may turn from darkness to light[/b] and from the dominion of Satan to God[/b], that they may [b]receive forgiveness[/b] of sins and an inheritance[/b] among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'


#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Well here is a case where I nearly agree 100% with JJ!! Can't believe it!

HP: It is called ‘dead log syndrome.’

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: God chooses to have mercy on all "For God so loved the WORLD that He gave" - God sovereignly chooses to will "that ALL should come to repentance" for He says "He is not willing for ANY to persish" 2Peter 3.

HP: God ‘not being willing,’ and God choosing to ‘will’ are not synonymous. Not being willing is simply saying that He did not desire to see any perish. He takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. On the other hand if indeed ‘God wills,’ there is no stopping it from coming to fruition for it would be the choice He has made and His intents of ‘His will’ cannot fail come to pass for He chose it to come to pass.

God being willing that none should perish in no way supports the notion you suggest, in that all have an opportunity to partake of His mercy in salvation. If God willed, in the sense of choosing an intent, that all would indeed come to repentance, all of necessity would be saved. Such is not the case.

BR: In Romans 2 He flatly denies that "he is partial" to any one person or group over another - arbitrarily selecting one to hear the Gospel and another not to.

HP: God is not arbitrary or capricious. While that is true, it cannot be extrapolated into assuming that such impartiality equates to all having opportunity. God has allowed man to be co-workers together in His vineyard, and has placed upon us the duty and responsibility of sharing the good news with others.

For illustration, if God, foreknowing the evil and wicked heart of one, and also knowing that if granted the opportunity to receive the gospel message, would simply use that knowledge to destroy the faith of others or stand in the way of the progress of the gospel, would it be arbitrary for God to chose not to allow that message to be granted to such an individual, knowing full well that more harm than good would come from such opportunity? I think not. God will have mercy on whomsoever he wills. Your reading into the texts your own private interpretation will not force or alter God showing mercy on whom He wills and withholding that mercy on those He knows it is in the best interest of all creation to do so. God has not ever been, is not now, nor ever will be under any obligation to grant or offer mercy to any man.

BR: In Romans 10 He makes the case "from nature" that nature itself reaches out to ALL and so ALL hear.

HP: Hear what Bob? The gospel or simply knowledge of the existence of God and conviction? They are not synonymous. All indeed have some knowledge of right and wrong and the existence of god granted to them but that does not equate with all receiving the good news of salvation.

BR: In Romans 10 He makes the case "from nature" that nature itself reaches out to ALL and so ALL hear.

HP: As a side note, I thought our nature was sinful and that alone? Now you are telling me that by the nature this dead log possess, the Spirit of God is 'reaching out' informing and enlightening them. A very strange ‘dead log’ indeed.

BR: In John 16 it is the WORLD that is convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment.

HP: Where do you read into that verse ‘the gospel?’

BR: In John 12:32 it is the unqualified ALL -- ALL MANKIND that he draws,

HP: I believe you are in error in that assumption. He is lifted up as the gospel message goes forth, and as it goes forth, but that does not necessitate believing all have or will hear that message.

BR: In Rev 3 He stands at the door and knocks for all such that IF ANYONE hears His voice and OPENS He will come in.

HP: It is amazing to me that not one of the verses state plainly what you are trying to get them to say. You and JJ could use a lesson on the usage of the word "IF." I do not believe any of us have the right to just read into the text, or ignore key words such as 'if,' that which we need in order to find support our arguments. That is the kind of practice that may support ones private dogmas, but is not done to the advantage of truth and reason.

BR: In John 1 He is the light that coming into the world ENLIGHTENS EVERY MAN.

HP: Joh 1:9 “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

That is indeed true, but that does not translate to everyman that cometh into the world receives the gospel message. You are reading into the text something that is not indicated or implied. You are placing a private interpolation of that verse into play that cannot be supported by the text itself.

BR: Never does God say - well the reason only SOME of you are saved because I arbitrarily select a FEW for heaven and don't actually work that hard for the rest.

HP: Have you ever noticed how still a paper duck stands when you are shooting at creation of a mere figment of your imagination?

BR: In Romans 2:11-16 God makes the case EVEN for the salvation of those who are so distant, so remote that they have no access to the Word of God at all but "do INSTINCTIVELY the things of God" where the Holy Spirit has circumcised the heart as He says in Romans 2 writing the New Covenant law on the heart.

HP: “The case EVEN for the salvation of those who are so distant” ?? I have never seen a more vivid parade of texts used to support ideas that in no way are even alluded to in the text. An enlightened conscience is not synonymous with receiving the gospel, not now, not ever.

BR: IMHO

HP: IMHO we should maintain the integrity of the texts by not ignoring words such as 'if' and not to read into the text what we wish they said or we would like them to say in order to find support for our ideas.

 

[jne1611]

1. The truth is in Rom 3 - ALL are born in sin, depraved with sinful natures that -- "by nature" are children of wrath.

But God DRAWS ALL mankind and convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". God was "IN CHRIST" reconciling "THE WORLD" to Himself".

2. Grace is unconditional - in that God unconditionally draws, and reconciles and convicts as Romans 2 says "It is the GOODNESS of God that LEADS you to repentance". But Grace does not FORCE the will as some types of Calvinism suppose.

3. Limited atonement when taken to be Calvinism's limited grace, limited Love - (limited God) is wrong. It supposed extreme partiality and arbitrary selection as the "methods of God". The truth is "God so LOVED the WORLD" and as Peter said "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance". There is NO arbitrary selection process with God for as Paul says "God is NOT Partial" Romans 2.

YET - limited Atonement IS correct IF the CORRECT VIEW of Atonement had been used instead of the false pagan notion of "appeasement of the angry god" - the Bible view is "God so LOVED THE WORLD that HE GAVE".

4. Grace is resistable - in that men harden their hearts against it as is clearly seen in scripture. IN Heb 3 and 4 we see the command TO US "do NOT harden your heart".

5. Perseverance of the saints is correct - but should not be taken to the point of removing free will. Adam FREELY chose sin.

In Christ,

Bob

The rest of that verse I have highlighted says "not imputing their trespasses unto them" Do you believe that is descriptive of all men? If so, no one will be lost.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.