What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[Jarthur001]

Hello HP,

HP: Could it be that we confuse ‘having the ability’ with ‘having the opportunity?’ For instance, if a man has the abilities to be a baseball player, does that mean he can join a team anytime he so desires? I would not believe so. Neither can the sinner, although endowed with all the needed ability to be saved, get saved at any moment he wants. We must be responsive when God provides the influence.

I think it is both. What % is unability and what % is opportunity, I do not know. This "opportunity" is one level of election that many free-willers run from yet is cleary in the Bible and should be easy for use to agree on. By you bringing this up shows that at least you are willing to admit that all men do not have the same amount of grace given to them at birth. Yet there is another level found also that I understand you may not agree with...that being "unability".

Scripture states that God will not always strive with man. Something must serve to motivate our hearts to salvation, and that motivation, that influence comes from God. It is not something we of ourselves drum up, for within us, apart from God, there is no motivation that would strive to motivate us in the direction of God.

Ezek 36:26-27
A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

Acts 16:14
14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message

Acts 26...
I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.



In Christ....James

 

[jne1611]

My point was you all are using God's "hatred and wrath" as well as His foreknowledge and not offering salvation before Cain to prove that part of His plan was to preordain certain individuals (most of mankind, in fact) to Hell by withholding the grace given to those who ended up saved.
It's obviuos that the reason God did not guarantee every single man who ever lived would be spared Hell is something that we cannot completely answer. But that does not mean we go and assign individuals' fate in Hell as a specfic intent of God's plan (explained by some as being for our enjoyment in Heaven, even!) Are we really supposed to look foward to seeing Cain roast in Hell, or some tribesman who never heard, and we have never seen in this life?

You seem to be attacking a straw man. I have not read anything about us seeing Cain roasting in hell on this thread.

 

[jne1611]

Hello HP,



I think it is both. What % is unability and what % is opportunity, I do not know. This "opportunity" is one level of election that many free-willers run from yet is cleary in the Bible and should be easy for use to agree on. By you bringing this up shows that at least you are willing to admit that all men do not have the same amount of grace given to them at birth. Yet there is another level found also that I understand you may not agree with...that being "unability".



Ezek 36:26-27
A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

Acts 16:14
14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message

Acts 26...
I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.


In Christ....James

I take it that you believe in total inability. If so, So do I.

 

[BD17]

I take it that you believe in total inability. If so, So do I.

I too believe in Total inability.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

James: Ezek 36:26-27
A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances.

Acts 16:14
14One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message

Acts 26...
I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.

HP: Care must be given in the verses you mentioned not to read into it a specific fixed notions concerning the words or phrases such as ‘cause,’ ‘the Lord opened’ ‘appeared to appoint you’ to open their eyes’ ‘to turn them’ etc. Everyone of these words and statements can clearly be thought of in more than one sense.

There is a danger of setting for ourselves certain presuppositions, that direct our understanding of the meaning of the text in one direction. For example, if one has for a presupposition that man has no abilities and is likened unto a dead log floating down a stream (which by the way is not a Biblical notion at all) one automatically associates cause with the granting of abilities, when in fact the word cause or caused might be used simply in the sense of motivation or influence. “The umpires ruling caused the team to come up off the bench.” Am I trying to say that the team was unable to come up off of the bench and the umpire granted the abilities necessary to perform such a feat? Not hardly. I am simply trying to say that the umpires ruling motivated or influenced the team to come up off the bench.

Scripture is written in common parlance, much the way we normally speak and converse. We need to exercise caution not to form such tight constraints around the use of certain words, that we place around them by our presuppositions, but allow our minds to look at these words from the angles reflecting the senses commonly used in normal parlance.

 

[jne1611]

I too believe in Total inability.

Man. I am glad there are some on this thread that see this truth.

 

[jne1611]

HP: Care must be given in the verses you mentioned not to read into it a specific fixed notions concerning the words or phrases such as ‘cause,’ ‘the Lord opened’ ‘appeared to appoint you’ to open their eyes’ ‘to turn them’ etc. Everyone of these words and statements can clearly be thought of in more than one sense.

There is a danger of setting for ourselves certain presuppositions, that direct our understanding of the meaning of the text in one direction. For example, if one has for a presupposition that man has no abilities and is likened unto a dead log floating down a stream (which by the way is not a Biblical notion at all) one automatically associates cause with the granting of abilities, when in fact the word cause or caused might be used simply in the sense of motivation or influence. “The umpires ruling caused the team to come up off the bench.” Am I trying to say that the team was unable to come up off of the bench and the umpire granted the abilities necessary to perform such a feat? Not hardly. I am simply trying to say that the umpires ruling motivated or influenced the team to come up off the bench.

Scripture is written in common parlance, much the way we normally speak and converse. We need to exercise caution not to form such tight constraints around the use of certain words, that we place around them by our presuppositions, but allow our minds to look at these words from the angles reflecting the senses commonly used in normal parlance.

You cant get any more plain than John 6:44 "No man can come. This is definitely descriptive of ability! And Jesus says only God can give the ability by drawing! Man can not of himself come to Christ and be saved. God must draw him & the next verse shows that he is Divinely taught who Christ is that he can come to Him savingly!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Eric...thanks for your reply.

My point was you all are using God's "hatred and wrath" as well as His foreknowledge and not offering salvation before Cain to prove that part of His plan was to preordain certain individuals (most of mankind, in fact) to Hell by withholding the grace given to those who ended up saved.
It's obviuos that the reason God did not guarantee every single man who ever lived would be spared Hell is something that we cannot completely answer. But that does not mean we go and assign individuals' fate in Hell as a specfic intent of God's plan (explained by some as being for our enjoyment in Heaven, even!) Are we really supposed to look foward to seeing Cain roast in Hell, or some tribesman who never heard, and we have never seen in this life?

This is a BIG subject that will be hard to give my views in one post. Your point is heard and well taken. No ...we can not assign any one to hell. Mans sin does this. We can not elect anyone to salvation...God does this. We cannot save anyone...no matter how much we want them saved. Salvation is by God.

The authors of the canons of Dordrecht also faced these questions and the charges implied in them.

The preaching of election puts God in His rightful place. Whether that preaching is in church or in the mission field, it gives the hearers the only proper view of God, namely, a high one. God must always be viewed as "high and lifted up" and as perfectly holy . The proper preaching of election shows God's sovereign right to do whatsoever He is pleased, without being arbitrary as some claim on this board or wishy-washy in anyway. The election shows the glory of God, for it exalts and magnifies God's always effective grace in His undeserved favor toward His people in Jesus Christ.

The preaching of election also puts man in his proper place, namely, as undeserving of any good thing and worthy only of condemnation. Through his own fault man has fallen from his original state of righteousness, which makes every man "deserving of eternal death, so that God would have done no injustice by leaving them all to perish, and delivering them over to condemnation on account of sin" (Canons 1, 1).

Before the holy God man is to reply only as did Isaiah,

"Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts"

The preaching of election takes away all in which our flesh might glory, and leaves us only God.

The preaching of election on the mission field and in the church is to be with the same care that one preaches any other doctrine of Scripture. No single truth must be taken out of its place in the "whole counsel of God."

Election is mercy given by God to the sinner. The wrong preaching makes the sinner think all is ok with sin and sees no reason to change. God hates sin and it is men that sin. We must place the sinner in his place...hopeless without Christ and standing before a Holy God. He must know that there is nothing he can do in order to win salvation. The call must be given to all men that Christ came to save sinners. If the sinner sees his need of Christ he will cry out to God to save him. We are not to take that those that do not respond the 1st time are not Gods choosen. We have no idea who Gods choosen are until they believe. It is our job to preach and Gods job to save.



In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob....long time no talk. I trust the family is well Down there in NC.

James - Good to see you back on this section of the board.

Welcome.

James
Commanding the fall was not the point. Let me ask again...

It gets to the same issue of "outcomes vs the intent of God". If God's intent is to save the World -- offer salvation to all then why are not all saved?

If God's inent is that perfect sinnless beings remain perfect and sinless and not be condemned to hell - why are the Angels sinning and condemned to hell? Why is mankind condemned to hell? It is all the same thing - comparing "outcomes" to God's obvious intent and purpose.

If the GOAL for God was to save all mankind.....

If man has freewill to choose God at anytime....

If God Knows cain will not have faith in Him....

Why did not God save mankind before Cain, thereby saving all of mankind, thereby saving all from hell?

It's that Free Will thing again.

If salvation was simply the act of God "zapping the brain" then you would be right - no free will needed - just a "timely zapping" -- and failing to "zap on time" we could certainly confront God with that question.

But that would be the Calvinist model - not the Arminian one friend.



****************

NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH......
Found here...2 pet 3

James said
And going back to my point which has not been addressed...

If God foreknows who will be saved, He also foreknows who will go to hell. (Foreknew as used be free-willers)

Very true.

James
By God not coming before Cain, does this not show that God did not plan to save all mankind?

Or could we maybe read NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH in context and see another view?

Enoch went to heaven "before Christ Came"
Elijah "went to heaven before Christ came"

All those saints listed in Heb 11 were SAVED "before Christ came".

Moses as we see in Matt 17 is in free and full open fellowship with Elijah who was translated to heaven without dying at all "before Christ came".

And that is because as Heb 4:1-2 says "WE had the GOSPEL preached to US JUST as THEY ALSO".

There was "no lack" in God's plan of salvation for Abel OR for CAIN.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You cant get any more plain than John 6:44 "No man can come. This is definitely descriptive of ability! And Jesus says only God can give the ability by drawing! Man can not of himself come to Christ and be saved. God must draw him & the next verse shows that he is Divinely taught who Christ is that he can come to Him savingly!

No one CAN COME UNLESS the Father Draws them --

"I WILL DRAW ALL UNTO ME" John 12:32.

2Cor 5 "God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD to Himself"

John 16 "THE Holy Spirit is given to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door THEN I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him"

So the supernatural enabling is SEEN to happen FOR ALL!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hello HP,



And who says that God didn't come to the USA before the white guys found it? One..it's not found in the Bible. We can make up any idea we want, but if its not found in the Bible its wogwash.

John 16 The Holy Spirit is sent TO THE WORLD to convict THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

Question - WHEN did the Holy Spirit find out that America was part of the World -- when "white guys found out" or before?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[jne1611]

No one CAN COME UNLESS the Father Draws them --

"I WILL DRAW ALL UNTO ME" John 12:32.

2Cor 5 "God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD to Himself"

John 16 "THE Holy Spirit is given to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door THEN I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him"

So the supernatural enabling is SEEN to happen FOR ALL!

In Christ,

Bob

Christ followed up on verse 45 with the fact that all who are drawn come to him. Do all men come to him? No.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by jne1611
You cant get any more plain than John 6:44 "No man can come. This is definitely descriptive of ability! And Jesus says only God can give the ability by drawing! Man can not of himself come to Christ and be saved. God must draw him & the next verse shows that he is Divinely taught who Christ is that he can come to Him savingly!

HP: Before I entered into a hope of eternal life, I went to places that I can no longer go to. Am I expressing inability, or unwillingness?

John said that as believers we cannot sin. Is John stating that it is impossible for a believer to sin, or that we should be totally unwilling to commit sin?

 

[jne1611]

No one CAN COME UNLESS the Father Draws them --

"I WILL DRAW ALL UNTO ME" John 12:32.

2Cor 5 "God was in Christ RECONCILING THE WORLD to Himself"

John 16 "THE Holy Spirit is given to CONVICT THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock IF ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door THEN I WILL COME IN and fellowship with him"

So the supernatural enabling is SEEN to happen FOR ALL!

In Christ,

Bob

So you believe the whole world has been reconciled to God? If so then they are all going to be saved because the rest of that verse says "not imputing their trespasses unto them". And Christ will raise all who are drawn up at the last day? That is the context of the drawing in John 6. No talk of being drawn & rejecting it.

 

[jne1611]

HP: Before I entered into a hope of eteranl life, I went to places that I can no longer go to. Am I expressing inability, or unwillingness?

John said that as believers we cannot sin. Is John stating that it is impossible for a believer to sin, or that we should be totally unwilling to commit sin?

So you believe that a man in reality could come to Christ without the Fathers drawing if he just became willing? Not saying you do, I just want you to clear that up.

 

[jne1611]

I have to turn in for the night. Will be back tomorrow Lord Willing!:tongue3:

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

It's that Free Will thing again.

NOT WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH......
Found here...2 pet 3


Enoch went to heaven "before Christ Came"
Elijah "went to heaven before Christ came"

All those saints listed in Heb 11 were SAVED "before Christ came".

Moses as we see in Matt 17 is in free and full open fellowship with Elijah who was translated to heaven without dying at all "before Christ came".

Indeed this be true. God can step in at anytime and do as he pleases. But this only proves Gods love which for some reason freewillers seem ok with. Lets not forget why I 1st posted on this thread...your much used verse....
John 3:16 - "God so LOVED the WORLD that He gave...yes really!"
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=860435&postcount=102

with a followup by you...
"I am not WILLING FOR ANY TO PERISH but for ALL to come to repentance"

Was it Gods goal to save the whole world? If so...He had a chance to do this before Cain was born, but did not. Why? If it was because it was part of Gods plan then it is clear God did not plan to save all mankind.

right?



In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

John 16 The Holy Spirit is sent TO THE WORLD to convict THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment.

Question - WHEN did the Holy Spirit find out that America was part of the World -- when "white guys found out" or before?

In Christ,

Bob

Was Paul just kidding with us in Romans...

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

You keep arguing that God blew his chance - why is that? Are you saying that god should have not allowed Adam and Eve to have children - simply send the Messiah THEN have the second coming -- no other humans and presto we have a really small nice and tidy salvation of humanity?

In Job 1 God declares that Job is righteous - Satan says it is not true. God then goes on to PROVE the point.

That is the way it is done in a free will universe - points are made via compelliing data - compelling argument - not by simply zapping the brains of everyone at the table.

God's goal is not only the eternal security and salvation of mankind - but of all the universe. Recall that God STARTS off by first losing 1/3 of the angels THEN all of mankind!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Blammo]

Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

There's that crazy "if" word again...