What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Jne1611: So you believe that a man in reality could come to Christ without the Fathers drawing if he just became willing? Not saying you do, I just want you to clear that up.

HP: Read post #119 and see if it answers the question for you.

 

[BobRyan]

Was Paul just kidding with us in Romans...

In Christ...James

Rom 10
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the good news; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”
[/quote]


The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19

1 the heavens are telling[/b] of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.


Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the condition –

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Blammo: There's that crazy "if" word again...

HP: Anybody see any inability here?

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

You keep arguing that God blew his chance - why is that? Are you saying that god should have not allowed Adam and Eve to have children - simply send the Messiah THEN have the second coming -- no other humans and presto we have a really small nice and tidy salvation of humanity?

Blew His chance? Not at all. I believe God was in full control and knew Cain would go to hell. This only proves that Gods plan was not to save all men. For if God knew Cain would not believe and did not come back, then it was part of Gods plan. Right?

Now if this is ture..and really there is no other way around it...how many have died without believeing in 7000+ years? Lets keep the number lower. Lets say it was only 100 each year. Each year Christ does not come back add 100 more to this number. If Christ came back in the year 1000 then 100,000+ less people would have not gone to hell. So...by not coming in the year 1000 was it part of Gods plan that these 100,000 not believe and thereby go to hell?

 

[BobRyan]

If God knew Adam would eat from the tree and fall - and did not come into the Garden "a bit early that day" then it was God's PLAN that mankind be doomed - right?

So is God the "Savior of the World" as He says in 1John 4:10-14? Or is it His plan to doom mankind instead?

This is the way you keep phrasing your "2nd coming before Cain" question.

 

[BobRyan]

In Job 1 God declares that Job is righteous - Satan says it is not true. God then goes on to PROVE the point.

That is the way it is done in a free will universe - points are made via compelliing data - compelling argument - not by simply zapping the brains of everyone at the table.

God's goal is not only the eternal security and salvation of mankind - but of all the universe. Recall that God STARTS off by first losing 1/3 of the angels THEN all of mankind!

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

Rom 10
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the good news; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

Before I address this proper..let me ask......

Was Paul saying we need to GO....

Or...

Was Paul saying there is no need to go...for all have heard?




In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Genesis 4:6-7 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

There's that crazy "if" word again...

Yes the old crazy if word. It is my guess you feel maybe I have overlooked this word. Lets look and see...

Cain could have "done right"...right?

But the point remains....He did not..and God knew this before hand. right?

And still...it was Gods plan not to come....right?

so if changes nothing. right?


BTW this passage address Cains offering and not why he was driven from Gods face...

5But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

This passage is dealing with another matter..MURDER

16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

17And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Cain was never asked to repent...but was just told to hit the road.



In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”


The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19

1 the heavens are telling[/b] of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.


Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the condition –

Paul is EXPLICITLY addressing the issue of those that WE might want to say "have never heard".

This is impossible to ignore.

Rather than arguing "Hey we need more missionaries" Paul is dealing with the issue of HOW faith and hearing and the Gospel has ALREADY gone out to the whole world so that ALL can follow the sequence of BELIEVE and confess already shown in Rom 10.

Recall the START of Romans 1 speaking of unbeliving PAGANs in open rebellion against God "They are WITHOUT EXCUSE because the INVISIBLE attributes of God .... are CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS that have been MADE".

Paul starts off arguing that God's message IS getting out there. And in Romans 2 Paul EXPLICITLY addresses the case of those who have no access at all to the Word of God (God's Word is authorotative Law in the context of Romans 2).

How is it that God is ALREADY OUT THERE?? Could it be that He really DOES "So Love the WORLD" and really DOES "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"?? For real?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

If God knew Adam would eat from the tree and fall - and did not come into the Garden "a bit early that day" then it was God's PLAN that mankind be doomed - right?



This is the way you keep phrasing your "2nd coming before Cain" question.

yeap...That is what I'm asking...in away yes. But it would not be the 2nd coming, but just redeemption.

so...what do you think? Was salvation Gods plan for all of salvation?


In Christ...James

 

[Jarthur001]

Rom 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; “their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”


The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Psalms 19

1 the heavens are telling[/b] of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.


Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the condition –

Paul is EXPLICITLY addressing the issue of those that WE might want to say "have never heard".

This is impossible to ignore.

Rather than arguing "Hey we need more missionaries" Paul is dealing with the issue of HOW faith and hearing and the Gospel has ALREADY gone out to the whole world so that ALL can follow the sequence of BELIEVE and confess already shown in Rom 10.

Recall the START of Romans 1 speaking of unbeliving PAGANs in open rebellion against God "They are WITHOUT EXCUSE because the INVISIBLE attributes of God .... are CLEARLY SEEN in the THINGS that have been MADE".

Paul starts off arguing that God's message IS getting out there. And in Romans 2 Paul EXPLICITLY addresses the case of those who have no access at all to the Word of God (God's Word is authorotative Law in the context of Romans 2).

How is it that God is ALREADY OUT THERE?? Could it be that He really DOES "So Love the WORLD" and really DOES "Convict the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"?? For real?

In Christ,

Bob

I'm sorry...i missed it.

1) Just a yes go....

or..

2) no..no need to go

will do.

1...

or

2..




In Christ...James

 

[Blammo]

Yes the old crazy if word. It is my guess you feel maybe I have overlooked this word. Lets look and see...

Cain could have "done right"...right?

But the point remains....He did not..and God knew this before hand. right?

And still...it was Gods plan not to come....right?

so if changes nothing. right?

"If" changes nothing in your theology. You don't believe Cain had the ability to do right. Somehow Abel did, somehow Noah did, somehow Abraham did, but Cain could not have done right unless "God came"?

 

[Jarthur001]

"If" changes nothing in your theology. You don't believe Cain had the ability to do right. Somehow Abel did, somehow Noah did, somehow Abraham did, but Cain could not have done right unless "God came"?

No...

The subject has been...did God have a plan to save all of mankind?

If so, God could have reached that goal by saving mankind RIGHT AFTER THE FALL!!!...before Cain was born. This could have been the end of the story.

But....this did not happen, even though God KNEW Cain would not believe. Right?

Now we have many years past...and many more have died unsaved.

Was this part of Gods plan?

 

[Blammo]

No...

The subject has been...did God have a plan to save all of mankind?

If so, God could have reached that goal by saving mankind RIGHT AFTER THE FALL!!!...before Cain was born. This could have been the end of the story.

But....this did not happen, even though God KNEW Cain would not believe. Right?

Now we have many years past...and many more have died unsaved.

Was this part of Gods plan?

Are you saying everyone who died before the Cross went to hell?

 

[Jarthur001]

Are you saying everyone who died before the Cross went to hell?

Not at all.

This is just a bit of "via negativa" toward freewill theology mainly "foreknow". I'm not sure the word can be used that way, but you get the idea.

If God knows who will be saved...and God also wants to save all mankind, the longer Christ does not come, the more go to hell.

If God wanted to save all of mankind he could have before Cain was born. Being that Cain was born and based on foreknowing, God did not plan on saving all of mankind.

Each year ...each day....each moment that Christ does not come back from the via negativa view, more people go to hell. Now...freewillers can have it both ways. Was this part of Gods plan? Or...did God have no way to stop this? Or....maybe God did not plan to saving all mankind.



In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

If God wanted to shortcut free will - "He could have cast Lucifer out of heaven before he deceieved 1/3 of the angels".

If God wanted to shortcut free will - "HE could have shown up early in the Garden of Eden just before Eve sinned".

Or was God "planning" to condemn the Angels and mankind all along??? This is the kind of question that James keeps asking in a challenge to God's "So Loved the World" and "Not willing for ANY to perish" statements.

The point is - that line of reasoning does not work with the fall of Lucifer, the fall of the angels, the fall of mankind, the choice of Cain to go a different path from Abel...

God says in 2Peter 3 that the whole reason for the long delay is that "God is not willing for any to perish" --- oh but wait! Doesn't God know that as each new day passes NOT ONLY are people deciding FOR salvation but some others are also deciding AGAINST it?

So does God say "I do this TO CONDEMN ALL THE MORE people just as I planned"?? A careful read of 2Peter 3 denies that

 

[BobRyan]

No...

The subject has been...did God have a plan to save all of mankind?

If so, God could have reached that goal by saving mankind RIGHT AFTER THE FALL!!!...before Cain was born. This could have been the end of the story.

This gets back to the Calvinist model of "manipulate events so that Lucifer does not fall or does not affect the angels or Adam does not fall or Cain does not rebel -- IF you do not manipulate the events, if you simply allow free will -- then you must be PLANNING ON the fall of the angels the fall of mankind, the loss of Cain... as your intended purpose".

You can not insert the Calvinist premise into an Arminian solution and ask for "another" Arminian solution "Given" that Calvinism is correct.

In asking if the delay is "the PLAN for getting more lost" the 2Peter 3 answer is no - it is the Plan for God "who is not willing that ANY should perish" - but it is a plan working INSIDE a free will model. One that does not "cut decision's short to force salvation"

In the case of Job 1 and 2 God is showing His cards - declaring Job to be righteous. Satan is showing his cards planning the destruction of all that Job has. But the Calvinist model would look at the result - the destruction of Job's family and home and claim that this Satan work is "what God planned" as though the work of Satan is the will of God.

But in a free will system the outcome is not "the intent" of God given that some actors choose to be evil - otherwise you assign "evil" to God. Free will is the "independant variable" that inserts distance between the perfect intent of God and the evil results of evil people acting wickedly. Calvinism simply glosses over that barrier and assigns all the evil results to God himself under the guise "yes but God is all-knowing".

Calvinism fails first and foremost in its attempt to "be God". It can not imagine how free will works to distance God from the evil results of evil actors - if at the same time God is "all knowing". As the saying goes "it is tough to BE God".

God's ultimate plan - His "goal" is to insure the safety - salvation - good outcome for His entire universe for all eternity.

choice A. Dump free will - zap everyone's brain and do not bother with 6,000 years of sin and misery on earth. Don't allow Lucifer, or the Angels, or Adam or.... cain to rebel.

Choice B. FREE WILL - work through events so that EVEN though the evil acts of evil actors have devastating outcomes - YET the compelling arguments in those same horrible scenarios (Job 1 and 2) will work to establish and SECURE eternal life for all the universe in experiments SHOWING that God is not arbitrary, is not vindictive, is not unfair. Such that free will beings will CHOOSE to submit to His rule based on compelling argument - imperical data etc.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

If God wanted to shortcut free will - "He could have cast Lucifer out of heaven before he deceieved 1/3 of the angels".

Indeed He could have. Or God could have asked me what color hair I wanted before I was born. Or...God could have made ME Steve Jobs the owner of Apple Computer. This is only saying God has the power to do all these things. I will agree.

Now... Lucifer He did not stop. Jonah He stepped in with a Big fish. Why? It is clear God could have stopped Lucifer. It is clear God could have made ME Steve Jobs. But why did God make Steve, Steve..and James, James? Why did God stend a big fish out to bring back Jonah, and not send a fish to bring back Lucifer? Do you think this has anything to do with Gods plan? I think God wanted me to be James the tall ugly guy from WV. What do you think?

If God wanted to shortcut free will - "HE could have shown up early in the Garden of Eden just before Eve sinned".

Again God could have. But God did not. Yet God blinded Paul and made him listen to Him. Why Paul? If God could "withhold" Abimelech from sinning against Him, then why was He unable to do the same with Adam?...or could He..and then why did not God do so?

Or was God "planning" to condemn the Angels and mankind all along??? This is the kind of question that James keeps asking in a challenge to God's "So Loved the World" and "Not willing for ANY to perish" statements.

Indeed that is what I am asking. This is not an exercise in order to force my views on any one. My view is clearly stated. I also understand you do not agree with my view. Rather this exercise is to expose the error in the “foreknow” view of free-willers and said goal of salvation of "all man" that free-willers also claim. The 2 do not mix. In the free-will camp, you have yet to tell how God foreknowing Cain would not believe still did not come back before Cain was born, so that God could save all of mankind. In place of this, we see a dodge by free-willers or change to my views, which has already been stated. We would like to see how God knowing man would sin and not believe...and the goal of saving all of mankind jives from the freewill side.

The point is - that line of reasoning does not work with the fall of Lucifer, the fall of the angels, the fall of mankind, the choice of Cain to go a different path from Abel...

Really? I think God could have stopped Adam, angels and Cain, if God wanted to stop them. Could God have sent a big fish to bring back the angels? Sure. He could have sent 3 big fishes. But for some reason he did not. Do you think maybe this was part of Gods plan?

God says in 2Peter 3 that the whole reason for the long delay is that "God is not willing for any to perish" --- oh but wait! Doesn't God know that as each new day passes NOT ONLY are people deciding FOR salvation but some others are also deciding AGAINST it?

I still withhold my view on this passage. But being that you bring this up...
If this is the right view in context...why did not God redeem all mankind before Cain? This has yet to be address.

So does God say "I do this TO CONDEMN ALL THE MORE people just as I planned"?? A careful read of 2Peter 3 denies that

A careful read of 2 peter 3 will give your view a new meaning all together. But we will get to that later. For now, being this is your view...who do you make this jive with the fact that Cain and 1000s others have gone to hell and God know this before hand? Could God have stopped this just as he sent a fish for Jonah, if this was His goal?



In Christ...James

 

[BobRyan]

God says "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and the Calvinist response is "oh no that is not true - look at all the people lost in the last 2000 years".

God says HE "so loved the WORLD" and is "NOT willing for ANY to perish" and the Calvinist reponse is "OH no that is not true - look at how God failed to stop Cain from coming into existence".

Those arguments are not "exegesis" of anything at at all.

Now... Lucifer He did not stop. Jonah He stepped in with a Big fish. Why? It is clear God could have stopped Lucifer. It is clear God could have made ME Steve Jobs. But why did God make Steve, Steve..and James, James? Why did God stend a big fish out to bring back Jonah, and not send a fish to bring back Lucifer? Do you think this has anything to do with Gods plan? I think God wanted me to be James the tall ugly guy from WV. What do you think?

God did not "want" Lucifer to fall
God did not "want to lose sinless angels"
God did not "Want to lose all of mankind"

God did not "Want to be tortured on the cross".

Once the distinction is made regarding evil consequences of evil people getting what THEY want while God ALLOWS them to get it under a free will system - vs the case where we have GOD WANTING the best for everyone - then you have Arminianism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bob,

God says "HE is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" and the Calvinist response is "oh no that is not true - look at all the people lost in the last 2000 years".

Thank you for sharing YOUR view of Calvinism. Let it be known that all I have done in the last few pages of posting, was to ask you to put two major points together from the freewill side.

Foreknowing the unsaved...and salvation of all men.

Some how this is a sore spot I have talked less about MY view and asked more about fitting these to parts together using your view. I have not push my views on the thread at all. I have answered short statements when asked. But really most all of my post was asking YOUR views and how it works. Still...we just talk more about Calvinist. Am I to understand you right in that you can not make the 2 mix?

God says HE "so loved the WORLD" and is "NOT willing for ANY to perish" and the Calvinist reponse is "OH no that is not true - look at how God failed to stop Cain from coming into existence".

What? More about your view of Calvinist? How about your view of freewill and how these 2 major points mix?

God did not "want" Lucifer to fall
God did not "want to lose sinless angels"
God did not "Want to lose all of mankind"

God did not "Want to be tortured on the cross"

Ok..your view is that God did not want the above list to happen. I do not agree...but we will get to this later.

lets get back to what I have asked...
A review of your freewill side is in order...

1) 1st and foremost ...God has a goal to save all mankind. God is not willing that any should go to hell. This is where God starts..according to your view.
2) God foreknew Cain would not believe and is now in hell.

so...a) Could God have come back to save mankind before Cain was born making point 1..the main goal happen?
and...b) If" a" is (yes)...why did not God do this, if this was the main goal?

In the freewill model...NOT CALVINIST...we all know Calvinist are crazy. In the freewill model how does these 2 MAJOR points mix?


This is the last time I will ask, unless we see a reply to the subject. It is clear that the freewill model has no answer up to this point.

Next we will move to the next MAJOR point we must look at in the freewill model.




In Christ...James