What's wrong with Catholicism?

[Helen]

At its core, Roman Catholicism is a combination of Christian terminology and Scripture, the Roman legal system, and paganism.

In order to support their claim to being Christian, there is a massive twisting of Scripture and the addition of Vatican pronouncements and tradition both of which are given equal weight with Scripture in word but outweigh Scripture in practice.

In practice, grace is not freely given from Christ to His followers but must be filtered through the Mass and then through Mary. In other words, the RC Church sticks itself squarely between the believer and God as well as putting an idol in as a necessary step as well.

Putting itself in between the person and God, the RC church has then given itself the authority to forgive sins "in God's name" as well as to grant indulgences, declare anathemas, help get people out of an imaginary Purgatory, and, in general, not just represent God on earth, but stand in place of God here -- thus the Pope's title "Vicar of Christ". He has another title, "Pontifex Maximus," which literally means "greatest bridge-builder" which is the sole perogative and action of Christ.

In doing these things, the Roman Catholic church is literally trying to take the place of Christ. That is its biggest heresy.

 

[Johnv]

I really dislike these "what's wrong with" topics because invariably you'll find something wrong, and often something majorly wrong, with every religion and every tradition. You can't make your opinion known (be it pro/anti/or some of both) without someone berating your view, and without your opinion often berating someone else's.

One cannot argue that if a man accepts Christ as savior and becomes a member of the RCC, he's still a saved individual.

I certainly don't hold the today's Puritans responsible for the Salem witch trials, and I don't today's Baptist churches for the ungodly actions of some pro-segregationalist Baptist churches during the civil rights era. I know that's a bit apples and oranges here, but I think you get my point.

 

[Helen]

Actually, John, with all respect, I don't get your point. Many, many people are sucked into Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, JW's etc. precisely because they DON'T know what's wrong with them. When it is something as major as basic doctrine, it is extremely important to know what's wrong.

This is a lot different from saying the actions of a church or individual are wrong within their Christianity. That is when we most surely must ask the Lord to remove logs from our own eyes first.

 

[Johnv]

I personally don't place Roman Catholics in the same category as JW's and Mormons. I guess since I come from a more ecumenical background (having been invloved in several protestant churches before joining a Baptist congregation), I don't necesserily see differences in doctrine and interpretation as heretical. It's only within the Baptist fellowship that I've worshipped with folks who see the Ratholic Church as such. But you, Helen, have also studied them and come to a different view, and I respect our viewpoint.

The point I was attempting to get to previously was strictly in regards to the afrementioned list. Many of the items on the list are also shared by other non-RCC denominations, yet attention is not placed upon them. Perhaps that's why I've learned to take the anti-type arguements on this board with a grain of salt, and leave it at that.

I wholeheartedly agree that we must ask the Lord to help remove the logs from our own eyes first. Nearsightedness makes for poor marksmanship.

On that note, I'm gonna bow out of the board for the remainder of the weekend. I'm taking my kids to Sea World tomorrow, and need to dig out my splash zone proof gear.

[ January 17, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

I, too, was raised Catholic and as I attended a Catholic school I was required to attend mass every morning. I can remember as a youngster crying in my bed at night because my family was poor and I knew when I died there would be no one to pay to have a mass said for me so I could get out of pergatory and go to Heaven. My sister is still Catholic and insists on using her Catholic Bible. I keep pointing out to her that John 3:16 is in her Catholic Bible just like it is in mine. You are so right Helen; they are taught how to combat people of other faiths.

I will be celebrating my 27th spiritual birthday January 24th!

 

[Ps104_33]

My main gripe with the Roman Catholic Church is the fact that they claim infallibility. That is the whole foundation of everything else they believe.

There is no point in discussing the un-biblical doctrines such as the Marion doctrines or the papacy etc, because they are the first to admit that there is no Biblical basis for them.

They hold to Newman's development doctrine and the "church" can come up with doctrine any time the magisterium is in agreement.

If the Roman Catholic Church is Infallible then our whole case is gone and all the little victories we win over small controversies mean little. There is no point taking a few pawns if we get our King checkmated. Here are a few points to ponder.

1. God's message to His children should be clear, simple and unmistakable.

2. Spiritual freedom is ensured by believing God's message. Hence the Reformation.

3. Any man or movement that encourages doubt in God's Word is satanically motivated.

As far as I am concerned the RC Church is guilty of all three.

 

[Daveth]

Hi. great posts

Sincerely

David

[ February 05, 2003, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Daveth ]

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I don't mean to get off topic, actually I do, but John, you saud that the southern Baptists from years gone by were segregationalists.

That is entirely untrue. The Baptists during the time of segregation were some of the most outspoken opponents of segregation. What religion do you think Martin Luther King was?

The same was true during the Civil War. Many Baptists who were against slavery fought for the Union, even being from the south.

Of course this is not true in every case, but that goes without saying for any group.

To the topic, has anyone noticed that the Catholic Church did not exist until after all of the Apostles had died. Obviously, had any been alive, they would not have let the Catholic religion get started.

My biggest problem with the Catholics is that they don't beieve the truth...for all the reasons listed by others on the board.

God Bless. Bro. James

P.S. I actually had a Catholic on this board tell me I could not say God Bless because I was not a priest. I should have told him, "I thank God everyday for that."

We should all praise God that He has revealed the truth to us. Don't get "big-head disease". He can take away that knowledge as easily as He gave it.

 

[jimslade]

*post deleted for rudeness* It remains the prerogative of the BaptistBoard to determine who is allowed to post here.

Cheers,

Jim

Moderator

[ January 18, 2003, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Ps104_33]

I

[ January 18, 2003, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Bugman]

Hmmm, thats an, um, interesting turn this thread has taken.

The reason I do not consider the Catholic Church to be Christian, and thus the problem I have with them, is they do not teach grace by faith alone. Thats the big one, the one that seperates it from Christian Denomination s, but there are many litteier doctrines that allow this to be taught; Infalibility of the Pope, Sufficency of the Bible (or lack there of), Infant Baptism. So denominations have held onto some of these, but all Christian denominations reject Rome's biggest one.

I'm 18, For grades 4 through 6 I was in a Catholic School. I never had any issues with the RCC until I began to learn about them more and learn what the Bible says better.

The Biggest problem I have found when talking about the RCC is seperating the RCC from the people who attend it. I have in the past been called a Roman Catholic hater and other such nonsense. I don't hate anyone who attends a RCC, I hate the false teachings which are leading people astray. Sure there are some people who attend a RCC who are saved. I don't know why they remain in the church, but there are some who are genuinly saved. There are others, and these are the vast majority, who attend the RCC and follow it enough to get what they have been taught from childbirth will get them to heaven. I don't hate these people becasue they are mislead; I hate the orginization that misleads them. I view the people no differently then any other sinner who needs God's grace.

Now lastly, there are true Christians out there who see nothing wrong with the RCC. That doesn't make them any less Christian, or any less Baptist. The world is rapidly loosing discernment, and Christians are loosing it as well and it doesn't suprise me a bit.

Nothing gets me as upset as seeing protestants re-embracing Rome, but all blame for this rests squarely on us. When was the last time you heard a sermon on the Solas? Or heard a pastor talk about what seperates Protestants from Catholics (of course many of your have heard this all the time, but I would guess compared with years ago this is dropping). Istead of telling peopel to go back to Rome, perhaps more teaching about why we left in the first place is needed.

Of course, this is what I've seen generally, not specific to this post.

Bryan

 

[neal4christ]

there's a status of Jesus in every church, and it's usually dead center, affixed to a cross, in plain view.

I personally don't like to see this anywhere because Jesus is no longer on the cross.

Neal

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> there's a status of Jesus in every church, and it's usually dead center, affixed to a cross, in plain view.

I personally don't like to see this anywhere because Jesus is no longer on the cross.

Neal</font>[/QUOTE]I agree Neal. Looking at that and praying is like praying to a dead god and my God is alive and well!

Sue

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by jimslade:
John V

GET OFF THIS BOARD. I HAVE FOLLOWED YOUR CORRUPTING VIEWS FOR FAR TO LONG. YOU ARE NOT A TRUE BAPTIST. YOU ARE A DECEIVER!!!!!!!!

I dont care if I'm taken off this board but it is time the truth be told.

I must totally disagree. I am grateful for John V's posts. They are though provoking, patient, and discuss things from a perspective of rationality instead of simply an emotional outburst, such as, well, your post.

 

[Ps104_33]

What I would like to hear from Johnv is this:

Why are you a Baptist as opposed to a Roman Catholic?

How can that question be answered without being critical of Romanism which He seems to refuse to do.
It kind of makes me suspicious of him. A Roman Catholic can very easily come on this board and pose as a Baptist. Romanists are not above that kind of surreptitiuosness to defend their "Church".
If Luther, Calvin, Knox and Zwingli had his kind of pseudo-humility and lack of love for the Truth we would all be speaking Italian or Spanish and bowing to the "Holy Father" over in Rome.
*comment deleted as untoward and ungracious*..address the issue and not the person..Jim, moderator

I was reprimanded by the moderator on this board for making reference to the term "useful idiot". It was a term used by Stalin about Communist sympathizers in this country who feared death more than they loved freedom.

[ January 18, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[jimslade]

[ January 20, 2003, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: jimslade ]

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by jimslade:
Psalm 104 The verse that is applicable for Johnv is " by their fruits ye shall know them"
Thanks for your support.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.

I have seen these fruits in John's posts. Just because you personally don't agree with his responses doesn't mean his fruit is bad.

 

[Jim1999]

We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can battle against doctrine without striking out at personalities. This is the essence of showing the fruit of the Spirit, and it is also one of the most important of Baptist beliefs, that each individual has the right to interpret scripture as he is led by the Holy Spirit. We tend to forget this in the heat of debate.

Let's debate, but let's also respect one another and demnstrate it. Thank you,

Jim,

Moderator

[ January 18, 2003, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Ps104_33]

Jim,
My only problem with Johnv is that when one is debating with a Roman Catholic in this board he sticks his nose in and takes their side in the debate. It is tough enough trying to debate with Carson Weber, CatholicConvert and the like without having some so called Baptist jumping in and taking their side. I'm sorry, I think he is a counterfeit. Could you imagine Martin Luther with that attitude?

[ January 18, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Ps104_33 ]

 

[Jim1999]

Ps104,
Martin Luther did not choose to leave the Roman Catholic Church. It was his desire to remain with it and effect the changes from within. He was virtually kicked out.

No Catholics are permitted to post here. Nevertheless, we are obligated to be respectful under the BaptistBoard rules. I still say you can debate the issue, without being personal.

Thank you, and cheers,

Jim,

Moderator

PS,,I also have to moderate the other religions forum,,I know all about it and I would like to strangle some of them at times.....Can I say that on television?