What's wrong with the so-called Pre-Wrath view?

[webdog]

Webdog,

Quote:
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I was referring to God's wrath and the antichrist's wrath. It can't be stated the antichrist's wrath is separate from God's.
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My friend, they must be separated in my view because it is only God's
wrath that destroys the Antichrist on the Day Christ comes in glory.
If God's wrath occurred any time sooner than the last day, Antichrist
would be vanquished and cast into Hell.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

So you believe the antichrist's wrath is not in conjunction with what God has planned?

The Bible tells us to resist the devil and he will flee from us, and it is shown that satan cannot touch a child of God unless God gives permission (Job, Lot, etc.).

 

[Mel Miller]

So-Called Pre-Wrath

So you believe the antichrist's wrath is not in conjunction with what God has planned?

The Bible tells us to resist the devil and he will flee from us, and it is shown that satan cannot touch a child of God unless God gives permission (Job, Lot, etc.).

My Friend, I wrote that "God's wrath destroys the Antichrist on the Day Christ comes in glory. If His wrath occurred any time sooner than the last day, Antichrist would be vanquished and cast into Hell".

Because God allows Antichrist to "kill the saints" is not a sign that His
wrath coincides with Satan's wrath. In fact, Jesus has warned that "some will taste death after He comes in kingdom power" thru the Two Prophets.
Revelation reveals that God will avenge their blood on the Last Day.

No man can stand up to God's wrath that will occur only at the 7th Trumpet, the Last Trump. I find no evidence that God's wrath strikes
mankind during five Seals, six Trumpets and/or six Plagues. I believe the
6th and 7th Seals, Seventh Plague and 7th Trumpet occur on the Day
of God's Vengeance and Wrath. "No man will escape" unless he "begs
for mercy and joins those who will be kept alive on that Day". Luke 17:33; Luke 21:35-36. That is the Day Christ comes "as a thief"!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Wrath

Hey guys,

Just reading through your prewrath thread here. Got a question ---- Do you guys see Rev 7:9 as the rapture like most prewrathers do? Then how come the 5th seal saints come up and get the same white robes BEFORE the prewrath saints do? Are you saying there are 2 raptures?

See, my understanding of scripture is that anyone who is NOT raptured comes to heaven NAKED, 2Cor 5:1-4. Is that yours? So the 5th seal saints were naked and received "white robes." Later the GT martyrs come up and appear having already been given theirs SAME "white robes." So neither of these groups are raptured.

Back to the drawing board?

skypair

Well, to "understand that pre-raptured saints in heaven are naked" is a new one to me! There is no reason to believe they are naked at any time.
But I agree the saints of Rev.7:9 are NOT raptured! The martyrs of Seal Five must wait until the last one has been killed who must be killed. They will be raised up on the last day with all the rest of the saints as Jesus promised four times in John 6:38-54.

A lot of Pre-Trib Rapture people also think the saints in Rev.7:9 are already raptured. That is impossible because they are the ones who "come
out of the great tribulation"! Rev.7:13-14.

Furthermore, being martyrs, they will receive the highest possible award that Jesus offers to the Church. Rev.3:12. They will "serve God as pillars in the temple in heaven for 1000 years and the Lamb will be their shepherd". Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4-5. Only the martyrs will receive this reward. Those who "survive/overcome to the end" will reign over the nations on the earth. Rev.2:25-27.

Jesus will gather the elect from earth to meet Him at the Synagogue in the Sky on one of the 3 1/2 days after the great tribulation so that He
may be "glorified in ALL that believe ON THAT DAY". Mark 13:24,27; 2 Thess.1:10; 2 Thess.2:1.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Wrath View

Friends,

Pre-Wrath puts the 7 Plagues AFTER the 6th Seal by claiming the seven Trumpets succeed the 7th Seal and Plagues succeed the 7th Trumpet.

But since Seal Six occurs "in the days AFTER the great tribulation" and if
the armies of the 6th Trumpet have killed a third of mankind and have invaded Israel in the 6th Plague as PARTS of the great tribulation, THEN these armies must be "gathered to Armageddon" BEFORE Seal Six Opens!

Does anyone who reads this see the Big Picture that requires the 7th of each series to occur on the last day? If you agree, that means the armies of the Beast gather to Armageddon and God decrees "It is Done"
(Rev.16:12-17) before Seal Six (Rev.6:12-17) can begin to fulfill the Day of God's wrath and before Trump #7 can sound that "God's wrath has come to destroy those that are destroying the earth". Rev.11:18.

Christ will destroy the wicked on the same "DAY He comes to be glorified
in the Saints and to be admired by all who believe". 2 Thess.1:10.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[webdog]

Because God allows Antichrist to "kill the saints" is not a sign that His
wrath coincides with Satan's wrath.

I would like your take on this statement. God's wrath for the saints was appeased on the cross. What would be the purpose of the saints being punished?

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Wrath

I would like your take on this statement. God's wrath for the saints was appeased on the cross. What would be the purpose of the saints being punished?

Webdog,

If Pre-Trib saints are "kept from God's wrath" (meaning the wrath of Hell)
then both Trib-Martyrs who "die in the Lord" AND Trib-Survivors who "endure to the End" must be "kept from that wrath". Rom.5:9; I Thes.5:9.
The word "wrath" (orgay) does NOT apply to the Plagues which "complete God's "anger" (thumos) before the 6th Seal Opens for the Day of Wrath!!

You cannot equate Tribulation (which includes physical death inflicted by
Satan's servants) with God's wrath. Jesus' prayer is always fulfilled, "not that we be kept from tribulation; but that we be kept from evil". He prayed "NOT that we be taken out of the world". John 17:15.

Paul teaches that "tribulation is the test by which we prove ourselves
worthy of the Kingdom ... and that we must endure much tribulation in
order to enter the Kingdom of God". Paul requires and also prayed that Believers be "counted worthy of their calling" which includes suffering unto death. Trib-Saints will prove their worthiness by "loving not their life unto death" when the Two Prophets demonstrate "God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority" for 3 1/2 years; but just 1260 days. 2 Thess.1:5,11; Acts 14:22; Rev.12:10-11,14.

The martyrdom of saints is NOT PUNISHMENT or you would have to
include Stephen, the first Martyr!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[webdog]

The word "wrath" (orgay) does NOT apply to the Plagues which "complete God's "anger" (thumos) before the 6th Seal Opens for the Day of Wrath!!

Tell me, as our Father, what anger God needs to "complete" with His children?

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Wrath

Tell me, as our Father, what anger God needs to "complete" with His children?

My friend, you know the answer is "none"! God's anger has to do with the great Harlot, Mystery Babylon the Great. Believers are urged to "come out of her lest they share in her sins and partake of her plagues". Rev.18:4.

However, our Father uses "tribulations" to teach us patience, endurance.
And for Paul to have prayed several times that we might be made worthy
of our calling, not just recipients of His grace, indicates why "many will be purged and/or purified and refined". This principle applies to all believers just as Jesus taught in John 15 about purging the branches that do not
bear fruit.

Even with the wicked, God is patient, slow to anger. This is evidenced in the sixth Trumpet and 4th and 5th Plagues where they "refuse to repent of their wickedness" and God's anger reaches the point of exhaustion.

Even the symbolic "reaping and casting of the armies into the winepress of God's great anger (mega-thumos)" reveals that His patience continues until these armies gather to Armageddon and, with the 7th Plague emptied into the air, His anger is about to "mix undiminished in the Cup of Wrath"!

God's anger and wrath combine only in Rev.16:18-21 and Rev.19:15-21 and both of these passages are fulfilled after the 7th Trumpet proclaims that "God's wrath has come ... the appointed time to destroy those who
are destroying the earth". Rev.11:18.

Thanks for the exchange.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:

 

[webdog]

God's anger has to do with the great Harlot, Mystery Babylon the Great. Believers are urged to "come out of her lest they share in her sins and partake of her plagues". Rev.18:4.

You believe all believers will be tied into the great harlot?

 

[Mel Miller]

Pre-Wrath

You believe all believers will be tied into the great harlot?

Webdog,

That is a perceptive question!

This is the basis for my Website. We should prepare ourselves and others for the coming of the great tribulation. Five Catalysts will tell us when it has begun. But the "rule of Mystery Babylon over the kings of the earth" provides a PRE-ENDTIME opportunity to prepare. Rev.17:18.

The command to "come out of her" will become the one overriding issue of Believers once all religions, rulers and regimes join in seeking to solve
the problems of the Middle East. While it will bring a time of false peace and safety, it is NOT the time of a global sense of "peace and safety" to which Paul refers in connection with the nearness of the DAY of God's wrath. The DAY that comes as a "thief in the night" occurs 3 1/2 years AFTER Ten Kings destroy Babylon, the City, "by fire in one hour". Rev.17:16; Rev.18:8,10,17,19. So coming out of her applies only to the time of a pseudo-peace and security ... before Antichrist's identity is known for certain.

Friends with whom I exchange viewpoints are concerned that we should
be able to get out of debt during the Pre-Endtime of Babylon's rule. It is more than a matter of not being involved religiously or financially in the global System to be centered at Rome; but one in which we are free from having to depend on "buying and selling" to survive.

We may be able to tell 7 years in advance the week Christ should return; but ending our dependance on government for anything should lead many to plan in advance of the coming pseudo-peace under Mystery Babylon.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2: