What's wrong with you people?

[Reformed]

Question asked to R.C. Spoul Sr. during a panel discussion: "Since God is slow to anger and patient, then why, when man first sinned, was His wrath and punishment so severe and long lasting?"

R.C Sproul Sr.'s answer: "That God's punishment for Adam was so severe (perplexed look)? This creature from the dirt defied the everlasting, holy God. After that God had said, "The day that you shall eat of it, you shall surely die." And instead of dying, thanatos, that day, he lived another day and was clothed in his nakedness by pure grace and had the consequences of a curse applied for quite some time, but the worst curse came upon the one who seduced him whose head would be crushed by the seed of the woman. And the punishment was too severe?! WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! I'm serious. I mean, this is what's wrong with the Christian church today. We don't know who God is. And we don't know who we are."

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I agree with R.C. Sproul.

That question reminds me of the thing that rankles modern man's justice. Something the person asking the question did not seem to understand well when talking about "long-lasting punishment." The more odious question to modern man is, "Why are we all punished for our forbear's sins?" Of course, it is a more challenging but still ultimately silly question. God is innocent and righteous, period. His ways and thoughts are not like ours. Our thoughts and ideas of right and wrong as humans does not translate into right and wrong to God. Anyone with any idea of what the Law commands knows that.

 

[HankD]

actually the phrase is "thou shalt surely die" literally "dying you will die the deaths".
Sproul should have known that. I presume he did.

What it means for the Hebrew thinker is that death is an irreversible, multifaceted progression bringing us back to the dirt from whence we were taken which started upon the day of the eating of the "forbidden" fruit.

Assuming both sin and death were/are biologically/genetically transmittable after this eating, Why was reproduction allowed?

 

[Reformed]

actually the phrase is "thou shalt surely die" literally "dying you will die the deaths".
Sproul should have known that. I presume he did.

What it means for the Hebrew thinker is that death is an irreversible, multifaceted progression bringing us back to the dirt from whence we were taken which started upon the day of the eating of the "forbidden" fruit.

Assuming both sin and death were/are biologically/genetically transmittable after this eating, Why was reproduction allowed?

Because God showed both grace and mercy. The curse of death still went into effect. It has passed on to Adam's posterity (use). In Adam ad Eve's case, their physical death was not immediate.

P.S. I think what R.C. was railing against was general biblical illiteracy within the evangelical church. This video was just a short time before his death. R.C. spent his life teaching. Considering this was a Ligonier conference, I can imagine him thinking, "Have I come this far in my ministry and people still don't know their Bible?"

 

[HankD]

Because God showed both grace and mercy. The curse of death still went into effect. It has passed on to Adam's posterity (use). In Adam ad Eve's case, their physical death was not immediate.

P.S. I think what R.C. was railing against was general biblical illiteracy within the evangelical church. This video was just a short time before his death. R.C. spent his life teaching. Considering this was a Ligonier conference, I can imagine him thinking, "Have I come this far in my ministry and people still don't know their Bible?"

something indeed died on that very solar day as they ran in fear after eating and then hearing His voice ...
yes they/we ran from His presence with flesh and blood bodies alive (but dying) the deep communion had been sapped of its life blood for them and our race (but now gloriously restored).

No doubt Sproul knew that that fellowship had been fully restored - but many, perhaps most, had not prevailed and boldly gone beyond the torn vail into the presence of our loving heavenly father though we have been told and invited back.

1 john 1
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[HankD]

so grace brings back a fellowship with the LORD known only by the exercise of faith.

Has He truly gone beyond the veil ?

Hebrews10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Reformed]

so grace brings back a fellowship with the LORD known only by the exercise of faith.

Has He truly gone beyond the veil ?

Hebrews10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Grace and mercy often work in tandem. Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve and mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve. Salvifically, all believers are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). I happen to believe that Adam and Eve are in the presence of the Lord. The only way that is possible is through faith in the future seed of the woman, Jesus. While we do not read about their confession of faith in Genesis, I am convinced it probably occurred when God made His promise about the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15). Adam and Eve were not so far removed for their sinless standing before God that they would have failed to understand their sin and the offer of reconciliation God offered them and their posterity. Also, in Genesis 4, Eve two times credited God with the gift of childbearing (Genesis 4:1, 25). This displays a covenant relationship with God.

Lastly, not all manifestations of God's grace are salvific. He brings the rain on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). However, when God provided skins made from animals to clothe Adam and Eve, it was a strong overture of atonement.

I recommend you take R.C. Sproul's words at face value, or not. He was lamenting the level of biblical understanding across broad evangelicalism. I share his concern.

 

[Revmitchell]

Because God showed both grace and mercy. The curse of death still went into effect. It has passed on to Adam's posterity (use). In Adam ad Eve's case, their physical death was not immediate.

P.S. I think what R.C. was railing against was general biblical illiteracy within the evangelical church. This video was just a short time before his death. R.C. spent his life teaching. Considering this was a Ligonier conference, I can imagine him thinking, "Have I come this far in my ministry and people still don't know their Bible?"

If that was what in fact was thinking it shows quite the arrogance.

 

[Reformed]

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, I shared R.C. Sproul's frustration when I moved to Polk County, Florida and started looking for a church home. Many of the churches I visited had the theological acumen of Our Daily Bread. I was not looking for the perfect church. I knew that to find a church that held to my theological distinctives was going to be neigh impossible. I visited a lot of churches. There are Baptist churches everywhere in this county. I was surprised how long it took to find one that had high regard for the Word of God and actually taught it. I have to believe that my experience is not unique.

 

[Reformed]

If that was what in fact was thinking it shows quite the arrogance.

When I first saw the video a few years back that was my initial reaction. But then I looked at the totality of R.C.'s life and ministry. I think he allowed his frustration to boil over. In retrospect, he probably wished he had that moment back. But I think all of us can appreciate the feeling of frustration when something we have invested our life into seems to be unappreciated. I contrast this moment of his with many other moments of restraint he had on the public stage.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have had

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, I shared R.C. Sproul's frustration when I moved to Polk County, Florida and started looking for a church home. Many of the churches I visited had the theological acumen of Our Daily Bread. I was not looking for the perfect church. I knew to find a church that held to my theological distinctives was going to neigh impossible. I visited a lot of churches. There are Baptist churches everywhere in this county. I was surprised how long it took to find one that had high regard for the Word of God and actually taught it. I have to believe that my experience is not unique.

I have had the same experience when I relocated.
It took a few years to sift through and find a couple of local churches that are looking to be somewhat biblical. It as not as RM says, arrogant or rude, or any such thing. It is a matter of getting down to where the theological rubber meets the road, with living active Kingdom service.

 

[Iconoclast]

When I first saw the video a few years back that was my initial reaction. But then I looked at the totality of R.C.'s life and ministry. I think he allowed his frustration to boil over. In retrospect, he probably wished he had that moment back. But I think all of us can appreciate the feeling of frustration when something we have invested our life into seems to be unappreciated. I contrast this moment of his with many other moments of restraint he had on the public stage.

Sometimes our emotion breaks through and for a moment our inner thoughts come out, and eventually biblical instruction and teaching over take and inform our thoughts and actions.
We see that on a daily basis on these message boards.
Clear instruction is given and others cannot seem to welcome it.
false accusations, slander, and false witness take place , instead of welcoming correction. God is in control even in the midst of false and evil accusations.

 

[Reformed]

I have had


I have had the same experience when I relocated.
It took a few years to sift through and find a couple of local churches that are looking to be somewhat biblical. It as not as RM says, arrogant or rude, or any such thing. It is a matter of getting down to where the theological rubber meets the road, with living active Kingdom service.

I know when my dear bride agrees with me on spiritual matters I am on the right track! She felt the same way. We meet plenty of nice people when we visited churches. Warm, friendly, and outgoing. We finally did find a church that fed our soul with the Word. When I ask myself why it took so long, the answer I keep coming back to is that it is Christians who have changed in their attitude to the Word of God. In my church search I found that many of the churches were really into worship; not worship as in true worship, but worship as in production. The production was the main thing. By the time the preacher got his turn at bat, his message was anti-climatic. I expected a few churches to be like that, but I was shocked when I found out it was more than just a few.

 

[Reformed]

Let me add, contrary to how I come across on the Baptist Board to some people, I am not rude to people. When my wife and I visited these different churches we were as kind and gracious as possible. A few times we decided to visit a church a second time, thinking we may have been too harsh in our assessment.

 

[Iconoclast]

I know when my dear bride agrees with me on spiritual matters I am on the right track! She felt the same way. We meet plenty of nice people when we visited churches. Warm, friendly, and outgoing. We finally did find a church that fed our soul with the Word. When I ask myself why it took so long, the answer I keep coming back to is that it is Christians who have changed in their attitude to the Word of God. In my church search I found that many of the churches were really into worship; not worship as in true worship, but worship as in production. The production was the main thing. By the time the preacher got his turn at bat, his message was anti-climatic. I expected a few churches to be like that, but I was shocked when I found out it was more than just a few.

The production becomes central.
The sermon becomes a sermonette.
The saints are feeding off a hymn, rather than the word preached.
Limited spiritual interaction or edifying speech available.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, I shared R.C. Sproul's frustration when I moved to Polk County, Florida and started looking for a church home. Many of the churches I visited had the theological acumen of Our Daily Bread. I was not looking for the perfect church. I knew that to find a church that held to my theological distinctives was going to be neigh impossible. I visited a lot of churches. There are Baptist churches everywhere in this county. I was surprised how long it took to find one that had high regard for the Word of God and actually taught it. I have to believe that my experience is not unique.

I had the same problem in Orange county not far from you. I tried one church to feel like I was a starving lamb since the sermons rarely referenced the Word. It was very high production though, and felt like a concert with food on many occasions. It was fun, exciting, and spine chilling to go, but empty.

Another church had no where close to my doctrine, despite billing itself as a conservative baptist church. The music was weird songs about the End Times, weird songs about how we long to gaze forever at Jesus' beauty with loving devotion (despite the fact the suffering servant is said to be more comely than handsome, the glorified Jesus is as scary as an angel, least of all that I'm a guy and feel weird), or Charismatic songs, even ones about the Holy Spirit's presence coming down. I tried Free Will churches to find out what they believe, but the ones I found relied on emotionalism in the sermons to make points instead of the Word. I finally got a recommendation to the church I'm at now, and I felt it was well worth the search. I love my current church.

 

[atpollard]

Assuming both sin and death were/are biologically/genetically transmittable after this eating, Why was reproduction allowed?

Just an observation, but "WHAT IF" God had stopped at clothing Adam and Eve and allowing them to live out their multi-century life spans in toil then die childless. God would then have no reason not to advance directly to the end of Revelation, casting sin and death and the fallen angels into the fire and creating a new heaven and earth where those angels that did not rebel could praise His glory. God would have still revealed Himself to be Holy and Merciful and Just and all powerful and Righteous and Loving.

Now think about the plan that God actually did choose and how much more that plan has revealed about the depth of God's Holiness and Mercy and Justice and Power and Righteousness and Love than the first option would have. God's plans serve to reveal God's glory all the clearer. [I.M.H.O.]

 

[HankD]

Grace and mercy often work in tandem. Grace is God giving us what we do not deserve and mercy is God not giving us what we do deserve. Salvifically, all believers are saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9). I happen to believe that Adam and Eve are in the presence of the Lord. The only way that is possible is through faith in the future seed of the woman, Jesus. While we do not read about their confession of faith in Genesis, I am convinced it probably occurred when God made His promise about the seed of the woman (Genesis 3:15). Adam and Eve were not so far removed for their sinless standing before God that they would have failed to understand their sin and the offer of reconciliation God offered them and their posterity. Also, in Genesis 4, Eve two times credited God with the gift of childbearing (Genesis 4:1, 25). This displays a covenant relationship with God.

Lastly, not all manifestations of God's grace are salvific. He brings the rain on the just and the unjust (Matthew 5:45). However, when God provided skins made from animals to clothe Adam and Eve, it was a strong overture of atonement.

I recommend you take R.C. Sproul's words at face value, or not. He was lamenting the level of biblical understanding across broad evangelicalism. I share his concern.

i like Sproul.

 

[Jerome]

...Something the person asking the question did not seem to understand well

Who was it, that asked the question?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Who was it, that asked the question?

From the video, it seems they got questions in writing from the conference attendees.