whats your difference

[npetreley]

I rest my case...

I'm not sure what victory you're celebrating. To be more precise, a TV preacher said something like "You see? God doesn't want all of you." That's all. He didn't teach on the subject, at least not that I know of because I immediately turned him off and went to the Bible.

I had already thought the very same thing from reading the Bible, but his statement was so blunt I was motivated to study the Bible to see if it was really right. What did I find but that Jesus was even MORE blunt about the issue. It was the Bible that changed my mind about free-willism, not some teacher. It was only AFTER I came to the conclusion that election was true that I picked up Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will, and enjoyed it so much because he affirmed everything I had already concluded.

 

[MB]

Hi Andy;

I know many people when they were saved did not (or never considered to) believe their salvation was eternally secure, but they came to believe that doctrine after studying the Bible and listening to solid teaching concerning the matter. That must make the doctrine of eternal security a false doctrine under your faulty logic displayed here.

First of all eternal security is not a Calvinist doctrine. It's the doctrine of Christ.
Perseverance is Calvinism's idea of security. Sealed and Preserved is mine. There is a hugh difference between the two doctrines.
If God persevered Christians then Christians wouldn't be such sinners. Rather we are sealed and presevered in spite of our sins. We aren't made righteous by our perseverance we are made righteous by the faith of Jesus Christ.
MB

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog, to elaborate further, I know people who came to believe Eternal Security after studying the Bible, but they were brought up in a different background or couldn't articulate well what they believed. After listening to some mature believers, they learned to better articulate what they believed. Same thing with how some come to accept Calvinism.

Essentially what you are saying is that we are not allowed to change our beliefs at all. Whatever doctrines we held at the moment of salvation, we are bound to hold those doctrines forever. What an absurd form of reasoning on your behalf.

This why I wonder what your true agenda is in participating in these C/A debates - trying to find anything and everything to disprove Calvinism by using the weakest and most illogical arguments. You appear to be grasping at straws and come across as very bitter in your delivery of it. Peace to you anyways, though.

 

[MB]

I'm not sure what victory you're celebrating. To be more precise, a TV preacher said something like "You see? God doesn't want all of you." That's all. He didn't teach on the subject, at least not that I know of because I immediately turned him off and went to the Bible.

Where did you find confirmation that God doesn't want to save all of us? Scripture please?

I had already thought the very same thing from reading the Bible, but his statement was so blunt I was motivated to study the Bible to see if it was really right. What did I find but that Jesus was even MORE blunt about the issue. It was the Bible that changed my mind about free-willism, not some teacher. It was only AFTER I came to the conclusion that election was true that I picked up Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will, and enjoyed it so much because he affirmed everything I had already concluded.

If this is true then you should have no problem with sharing it to prove you have it right. If you have no scripture then it can only mean one thing. That such a thing doesn't exist in scripture.
MB

 

[webdog]

Essentially what you are saying is that we are not allowed to change our beliefs at all.

Essentially, I have said no such thing.

Whatever doctrines we held at the moment of salvation, we are bound to hold those doctrines forever. What an absurd form of reasoning on your behalf.

That would be absurd...had I said it.

This why I wonder what your true agenda is in participating in these C/A debates - trying to find anything and everything to disprove Calvinism by using the weakest and most illogical arguments.

...and your agenda...is?

You appear to be grasping at straws and come across as very bitter in your delivery of it. Peace to you anyways, though.

I guess it most likely would appear that way from the other side of the fence. I have yet to have that accusation thrown at me from anyone on my side, though. I'll take it for what it is...opinion.

 

[Andy T.]

Hi Andy;

First of all eternal security is not a Calvinist doctrine. It's the doctrine of Christ.
Perseverance is Calvinism's idea of security. Sealed and Preserved is mine. There is a hugh difference between the two doctrines.
If God persevered Christians then Christians wouldn't be such sinners. Rather we are sealed and presevered in spite of our sins. We aren't made righteous by our perseverance we are made righteous by the faith of Jesus Christ.
MB

My point wasn't trying to compare the differing beliefs on eternal security. I could use any number of doctrines to establish my point. For instance, I know some people who held to Speaking in Tongues when they were saved, but later rejected that doctrine after studying and learning.

 

[npetreley]

Where did you find confirmation that God doesn't want to save all of us? Scripture please?


If this is true then you should have no problem with sharing it to prove you have it right. If you have no scripture then it can only mean one thing. That such a thing doesn't exist in scripture.
MB

It exists in many places. Here are just a few.

"God has made all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of destruction."

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

[As opposed to whom?]

"He [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog,

You have said or implied two things:

1. No one is ever saved believing in the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace.

2. Anyone who does come to believe the DoSG does so, not by a good-faith study of the Bible, but by following the teachings of men.

No. 1 is an unprovable statement - a pure assumption on your part.

No. 2 could be applied to any change in doctrine by a believer.

So what you've said in your arguments is that (1) you know the mind of every believer at their moment of salvation, and (2) you continue to know the mind of evey believer after their salvation, so much so that they could never accept the DoSG unless they were being fleshy and following the teachings of men and not the Word.

 

[webdog]

Your logic and understanding is flawed, Andy.

1. If #1 is unprovable, then I would like proof it is unprovable. I would like to hear a testimony of a calvinist who came to Christ and immediately became a calvinist upon faith in Him. I've put this challenge up before, and nobody bit. Prove me wrong...

2. You are correct that this could relate to any doctrine, but we are not discussing any doctrine. I would like to hear from calvinists who came to believe TULIP strictly from the Bible. No "I studied Scripture, and then I heard someone say..." stuff either. Total depravity, unconditional election, irresistable grace, and perseverance of the saints. Let's hear how a calvinist arrives at all 5 strictly from Scripture...and as a new believer at that.

 

[MB]

It exists in many places. Here are just a few.

"God has made all things for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of destruction."

God created the whole world I agree.

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

The key word here is "IF" God hasn't shown His wrath yet and we are vessles of wrath to start with.

"For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified."

Are you Jewish because the Jews is who is talked about here.

[As opposed to whom?]

"He [God] has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”

Again this is the Jews being spoken of not the gentiles.

None of your passages say God doesn't want to save all men. So all these passages do not support your claims nor do they give you reason to believe this at all. None of them even remotely suggest what you claim.

MB

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog, I've heard the testimony of people you describe in both groups above.

Again, I'm not sure what any of this is supposed to prove. It is grasping at straws.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, I've heard the testimony of people you describe in both groups above.

Again, I'm not sure what any of this is supposed to prove. It is grasping at straws.

I only state one group. Whose testimony said this? Are they on here? Can you supply a link if they are well known? I know personally about 9 calvinists, and that doesn't include this board. EVERY ONE came to be one after hearing Sproul, Macarthur...reading Pink, Spurgeon, etc. Not ONE started off their Christian faith as a calvinist. I have yet to see anyone here claim they have.

 

[Andy T.]

Webdog, you do realize what a small, small portion of the Church the Baptist Board entails, don't you? The testimonies I have heard haven't been from anyone here. They are not public or online to where I could send you a link.

I also suspect there were many Puritans who came to Christ accepting the DoG.

I'm curious, do you evidence such contempt to the Calvinists you know in person, including your pastor(s)? Or do just us online Calvinists get the brunt of it?

 

[MB]

Hi Andy;

My point wasn't trying to compare the differing beliefs on eternal security. I could use any number of doctrines to establish my point. For instance, I know some people who held to Speaking in Tongues when they were saved, but later rejected that doctrine after studying and learning.

Studying scripture reveals the truth to us but combining it with the notions of men distort it. The fact remains that "perseverance of the saints' is the notions of men. Scripture never says God perseveres us but, says we are sealed and preserved. It never describes our security as perseverance

MB

 

[npetreley]

Studying scripture reveals the truth to us but combining it with the notions of men distort it. The fact remains that "perseverance of the saints' is the notions of men. Scripture never says God perseveres us but, says we are sealed and preserved. It never describes our security as perseverance

I have to agree with you here, and retract my earlier statement that I believe in the 5 points of TULIP. I think presevation is preferable to perserverence. The Bible even gives examples of saints that did not perservere very well, and for that reason some were sick and others fell asleep. They were preserved, though.

 

[johnp.]

webdog.

EVERY ONE came to be one after hearing Sproul, Macarthur...reading Pink, Spurgeon, etc. Not ONE started off their Christian faith as a calvinist. I have yet to see anyone here claim they have.

I believed in perseverance of the saints before anyone told me what it was called that, before I liked Pink or heard of Calvin or doctrine, all I knew was pew and vicar. I knew what one looked like, he had his collar on backwards. I was visited by an elder who heard me out and he mentioned joining the Church. I saw no reason to because I knew I would not believe as I did next week. He told me that was not so and pointed me to a few scriptures that blew me away, As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. Heb 13:5.
I stood no chance. The same way Christ came to me at first leaving me with no doubt of His existence so I believed. It was not an 'is it?' or 'ain't it?' so but I knew it so. I didn't decide anything.

MB. Studying scripture reveals the truth to us but combining it with the notions of men distort it. You should get yourself better teachers then man, my teachers made the word bloom. They opened up for me a world I had no idea existed. Some He gave to be teachers to teach me. He is exceedingly lavish to me.

john.

 

[webdog]

I'm curious, do you evidence such contempt to the Calvinists you know in person, including your pastor(s)? Or do just us online Calvinists get the brunt of it?

I speak out against what I believe is false doctrine regardless where I'm at. I'm not sure what you mean about showing contempt for calvinists personally. I don't think you are being real fair in that matter. I'm attacked by calvinists quite frequently here. I have offered calvinists the best on here...to never receive a like response, even in matters of prayer and personal issues. The arrogance and demeaning character of some calvinists here is quite apparent, and it gets real old.

 

[johnp.]

...perseverance...

npetreley.

PHP 1:3 I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

I prefer 'kept'. Less to do.

john.

 

[donnA]

God created the whole world I agree.


The key word here is "IF" God hasn't shown His wrath yet and we are vessles of wrath to start with.

Are you Jewish because the Jews is who is talked about here.


Again this is the Jews being spoken of not the gentiles.

None of your passages say God doesn't want to save all men. So all these passages do not support your claims nor do they give you reason to believe this at all. None of them even remotely suggest what you claim.

MB

Romans is addressed to
"7To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:"
So isn't the book of Romans written to all believers?

 

[webdog]

Romans 9-11 is clearly addressing Israel. I cannot see how this can be anything but. While Romans was addressed to the church, the church was composed of jews and gentiles. Not all verses dealing with Israel pertain to gentiles.