Wheat and Tares

[Darrell C]

Okay, this thread is open to anyone to post follow-up responses to those they were not able to get to because the thread was closed. Any thread, any response, is okay to be posted here. Please try to put a link in at least the first response from the imported thread discussion (you can easily do this by copying the quote with the members name that has an arrow pointing up beside it).

I will kick it off in the next post.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

@Martin Marprelate


Darrell C said: ↑

Its a really simple point I am trying to make, Martin: the wheat is contrasted to the tares, the children of God with the children of the devil.

Would we not assume that in this Age...the children of God are the Church?

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]
Well Darrel, I only note that the Lord Jesus does not say, "The church is like.....," He says, "the kingdom of heaven is like......" IMO,

You said...

Martin Marprelate said: ↑

Hank, dear brother, the field is not the church,


And I agree, the field is the world. However, the fact remains that the genuine wheat is contrasted with that which is not genuine, and that is, in this Age...the Church.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

the kingdom of heaven is more than simply the church.

And I have made many statements to that effect. I have presented more than "one Kingdom," so I am a little surprised at the following:

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

It is:
1. God's kingship, rule or recognized sovereignty (Luke 17:21; Matthew 6:10).
2. Complete salvation: all its spiritual and material blessings. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And they.......said, "Then who can be saved?"' (Mark 10:25-26).
3. The church: the community of men and women in whose hearts God is set apart as King. "....And on this rock I will build My church........I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:18-19).
4. The redeemed universe: the new heaven and new earth. ".......Inherit the kingdom prepared for you......" (Matthew 25:34).

Which of these which are relevant to the point I have sought to make, and have been dismissed by myself?

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

This is a long way of saying, yes, in the parable, the 'sons of the kingdom' are the Church, but you should not automatically assume that 'kingdom of heaven' = church.

I clarified the view I have concerning the Kingdom of God/Heaven, and that is evidenced in this response (and I picked a short one, lol):


Martin Marprelate said: ↑


I see no need for three ages here either. It is the same separation at the end of the age.


Yet in your definition...


It is:
1. God's kingship, rule or recognized sovereignty (Luke 17:21; Matthew 6:10).
2. Complete salvation: all its spiritual and material blessings. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And they.......said, "Then who can be saved?"' (Mark 10:25-26).
3. The church: the community of men and women in whose hearts God is set apart as King. "....And on this rock I will build My church........I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 16:18-19).
4. The redeemed universe: the new heaven and new earth. ".......Inherit the kingdom prepared for you......" (Matthew 25:34).


You actually recognize three, that which went before the establishment of the New Covenant (unless you want to deny that God's salvation among men was not present before Pentecost), that which we are currently in, and then that which is to come, the Eternal State.

Not really anything other than what I have said, is it?

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

I will reiterate the point, though, and take it in light of my eschatology: God's Kingdom existed prior to the establishment of the Church, you would agree with that, right?

God's Kingdom was established when the New Covenant was established, right? God's Kingdom, for the Pre-millennial, will be established when Christ returns. And even for the A-millennial, a Kingdom distinguished from the current Kingdom will be established, right?

The KoG arrives with the Lord Jesus. 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' are the first word of His public ministry.

And I also distinguish between that Kingdom and the one that was in place when this is stated.

So do you:

1. God's kingship, rule or recognized sovereignty (Luke 17:21; Matthew 6:10).

We have the same Rule and Recognized Sovereignty, but, we cannot nullify the distinction Christ (and Prophecy) draws between the Kingdom that are without question different.

For example, would you say that the Nation of Israel had an established rule and recognized sovereignty of God? And no need to mention they rebelled, this I know, just tell me if you see that as a truth. Was God to be their King? And is that in any way different from God being King over the Church in reality?

And I will pause there because we kind of cross over into more eschatologically oriented issues in the following, which as I said, be glad to discuss with you.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

The age to come has broken in upon the present age and it is constantly expanding (Matthew 11:12). Al through the time between our Lord's ascension and His second coming, He is adding to His kingdom (cf. Revelation 6:2), and folk are being drawn out of darkness into the kingdom (Colossians 1:13). But the kingdom was in embryo in our Lord's time on earth (Matthew 13:31-32)

This Age is nothing like the Age to come, whether A-mil or Pre-Mil. The thousand year period we recognize has associated with it longer life, and a cessation, at least in part, to the curse Adam brought upon Creation. The Eternal State will, we both know, be nothing like this Age.

People are not going to be saved in the Eternal State, Martin, because they will already be saved, lol.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

will not come in its fullness until His glorious return (eg. Matthew 25:31).

This Age is not a preview of the Age to come, we are promised tribulation while we are here, for example.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]



I think (and I say that with the utmost reservation, lol) I was simply pointing out that within Christ's ministry there is the Kingdom that Israel awaited in expectation of. This is the "third Kingdom" so to speak which is relevant when we study Christ's teaching. For example, when Christ is speaking to Nicodemus in John 3, there are two Kingdoms which have to be acknowledged, that which Nicodemus understood, and that which the Lord was actually teaching about. And both are relevant to the teaching, because we would not suppose that the Lord would be teaching outside of Nicodemus' understanding which the lord Himself had provided to him. He rebuked Nicodemus for being ignorant of what He was speaking about.


The kingdom that the Jews were looking for (John 6:15; Luke 24:21; Acts 1:6) is not on offer.

Agreed.

It was a Promise.

That is why John speaks about the Thousand Year Reign of Christ in Revelation 20. THat is when National Israel will "all be saved," and the Lord will at that time restore the Kingdom unto Israel." Not that Israel will rule, but, the Kingdom will be restored unto them, whereas in this Age it has not, and they have on a National Basis been blinded to the truth of the Gospel.

The reason all Israel shall be saved is due to the fact that all of Israel who are not born again will have perished by the time the 75 day establishment of the Kingdom ends.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

When Christ returns there will be the New Heavens and the New Earth, the age to come in all its fulness.

And I know you believe this, and am content to leave it at that.

However, we still have to acknowledge the distinctions made in regards to Kingdoms.

Let me ask you this, do you call the Record of Israel's creation unto its going into captivity (and return) as the Kingdom Years? Just curious.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

There is only one people of God (John 10:16; Galatians 3:26-29; Ephesians 2:11-18).

Israel was the People of God in the Old Testament. Israel is not, on a National Basis, recognized as the people of God in regards to the Church, for there is niether Jew nor Greek in the one new man.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

This is not Replacement Theology; it's Inclusion Theology

But Israel was not the Church. The Church is that Body created on confession of Jesus Christ.

So do you reject that the Kingdom of God/Heaven as defined by yourself, the rule and recognized sovereignty of God, was in existence prior to the Church? You would have to do that in order to deny a distinction between the Kingdom Christ speaks of being in existence during His ministry and the Kingdom in which the least of is counted greater than John the Baptist.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]


The Two Kingdoms in view are the Spiritual Rule and Reign of Christ, and...that literal Kingdom, whether Pre or A-millennial we can both acknowledge as the Kingdom that ultimately comes. We do not view this Age as that Kingdom, but, we can view this Age as that Kingdom.

Hope that makes sense, brother. We are in the Kingdom of Heaven/God but there is a Kingdom coming that will be entirely different than that which is found in this Age.

I doubt our differences will be sorted out on this forum, but I'll respond to your other posts as I have time.

And it's appreciated. I hope you don't mind me importing this discussion, because it just started getting good when the thread was closed, lol.

Martin Marprelate[/URL]]

Thanks for the conversation.

As always, Martin, enjoyed it.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Since my name was mentioned I would like to reiterate my view of the wheat and the tares especialy since Martin reminded me that "the field is not the church".

To which I would reply that the church has been dispersed into the world (the field).

My view is that the "kingdom of heaven" in Matthew 13 is all of what is called Christendom including the cults and odd sects of so called "Christianity".

Christendom is the expanse of churches, assemblies, gatherings, groups, etc... who name the name of Jesus Christ both saved and unsaved most calling Him Lord.

For this reason I believe Jesus does not call this mixed multitude the kingdom of the church.

Only God Himself can see that collective group of His born again sons and daughters (the redeemed church) all the saved within this hodge-podge.

This kingdom is scattered across the globe and again contains within it the mixed multitude of the children of God (wheat) and the children of the devil (tares) who were infiltrated into the kingdom from early on.

This mixture can and does happen within individual local churches as well as the homogenized entity of "Christendom" although there may be individual local churches in which all are saved or all are lost.

At the end of the world/age there will be the Great Separation of the wheat and the tares.
Until then, strangely enough Jesus tells those of the harvest to leave the tares alone as He is going to take care of business just before His second coming.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I thought it very interesting that Jesus tells the harvesters to first gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them (at a later time) but then to gather the wheat into His barn.

Hmm what/where is this barn?

barn apotheke During the harvest time in Israel temporary storage places were built to hold the grain to protect it from the elements and critters. At the end of the harvest the wheat was taken from the apotheke and thrashed and winnowed to remove the chaff and then taken to the mill for grinding into meal or to a granary for storage.

This view is my own consisting of a melding of other opinions.

IMO, Matthew 13 presents a challenge to traditional dispensationalism.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Since my name was mentioned

Hank, I looked but I didn't see where you were mentioned. Could you point that out to me?


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Hank, I looked but I didn't see where you were mentioned. Could you point that out to me?


God bless.

Post # 2

Hank, dear brother, the field is not the church,

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, I see it, lol:

You said...

Martin Marprelate said: ↑

Hank, dear brother, the field is not the church,

Not that you have to have a reason to join in, lol. I looked, but didn't see this. Thanks for clarifying.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

Okay, I see it, lol:



Not that you have to have a reason to join in, lol. I looked, but didn't see this. Thanks for clarifying.


God bless.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

I thought it very interesting that Jesus tells the harvesters to first gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them (at a later time) but then to gather the wheat into His barn.

Hmm what/where is this barn?

barn apotheke During the harvest time in Israel temporary storage places were built to hold the grain to protect it from the elements and critters. At the end of the harvest the wheat was taken from the apotheke and thrashed and winnowed to remove the chaff and then taken to the mill for grinding into meal or to a granary for storage.

This view is my own consisting of a melding of other opinions.

IMO, Matthew 13 presents a challenge to traditional dispensationalism.

I don't really see the challenge to traditional dispensational eschatology.

The Lord's teaching, while having an application to this Age, should also be viewed in the context of the revelation provided to men in the day of this teaching. The Lord taught within that sphere of revelation, or in other words, He did not teach above their understanding, so that there would be no application for them in that day.

So the teaching should, I think, have first application to the audience. And the audience is Israel in large part (and of course Gentiles and Samaritans are not completely excluded, just as they were not in the Exodus), so how does Israel play into the Return of Christ?

The basic application is a picture of a Kingdom. The Kingdom that Israel associated with Messiah is the Millennial Kingdom, or, that Kingdom Israel sat in expectation of. Let's see that in the explanation given by the Lord:


Matthew 13:38-43

King James Version (KJV)


38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


It's not really relevant, Hank, to the focal point of the OP, that "the field is the world." What is planted in that field is the good seed, which are always children of the Kingdom (and I mention this in regards to the statement made by @Martin Marprelate in regards to "the field is not the Church." In both applications of the sowing of the good seed (to Israel and the world in general), ultimately the result is the Children of the Kingdom (that is the intention of sowing the seed), which is ultimately the Church (meaning all children of the Kingdom of God are at this time one in Christ, and added will be), or, the One Fold of God's People under One Shepherd.

However, we see an end of an Age in view, which brings specificity to the teaching. It is my view, and I think that of most, that in view is Christ's Return, which takes place at the end of this Age. We see the gathering of the tares in Revelation in a couple ways. They are gathered under a clearly hostile enemy, and gathered to make war against God and Christ, and gathered by the Angels to stand before the Sheep and Goat Judgment, where they are destroyed, going into everlasting fire (judgment).

The Garner is...the Kingdom.

So again, not really sure how you see a challenge for traditional dispensational understanding.

Actually glad Moderation changed the title, lol, this title opens the discussion up a bit.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

I don't really see the challenge to traditional dispensational eschatology.

The Lord's teaching, while having an application to this Age, should also be viewed in the context of the revelation provided to men in the day of this teaching. The Lord taught within that sphere of revelation, or in other words, He did not teach above their understanding, so that there would be no application for them in that day.

So the teaching should, I think, have first application to the audience. And the audience is Israel in large part (and of course Gentiles and Samaritans are not completely excluded, just as they were not in the Exodus), so how does Israel play into the Return of Christ?

The basic application is a picture of a Kingdom. The Kingdom that Israel associated with Messiah is the Millennial Kingdom, or, that Kingdom Israel sat in expectation of. Let's see that in the explanation given by the Lord:


Matthew 13:38-43

King James Version (KJV)


38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


It's not really relevant, Hank, to the focal point of the OP, that "the field is the world." What is planted in that field is the good seed, which are always children of the Kingdom (and I mention this in regards to the statement made by @Martin Marprelate in regards to "the field is not the Church." In both applications of the sowing of the good seed (to Israel and the world in general), ultimately the result is the Children of the Kingdom (that is the intention of sowing the seed), which is ultimately the Church (meaning all children of the Kingdom of God are at this time one in Christ, and added will be), or, the One Fold of God's People under One Shepherd.

However, we see an end of an Age in view, which brings specificity to the teaching. It is my view, and I think that of most, that in view is Christ's Return, which takes place at the end of this Age. We see the gathering of the tares in Revelation in a couple ways. They are gathered under a clearly hostile enemy, and gathered to make war against God and Christ, and gathered by the Angels to stand before the Sheep and Goat Judgment, where they are destroyed, going into everlasting fire (judgment).

The Garner is...the Kingdom.

So again, not really sure how you see a challenge for traditional dispensational understanding.

Actually glad Moderation changed the title, lol, this title opens the discussion up a bit.


God bless.

Greetings Darrell, I see Matthew 13 as the course of the church age even though the church is not mentioned in Matthew 13.

Your exposition seems a bit fuzzy and nebulous to me (while mine is clumsy and somewhat indefinite).

I explained my reasoning for the Matthew 13 kingdom being a mixed multitude as was Israel and we know that from scripture Romans 9:6 ... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" just as some/many/most within "Christendom" are not of the church (The church of the firstborn - Jesus Christ, this shown by tactic of the devil and his infiltration of the tares into the kingdom.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

BTW I am a dispensationalist of sorts (but not a cookie cutter dispie).

The challenge:At the end of the age the tares are taken and bound first as opposed to the rapture of the saved first. Also "the barn" appears to be an earthly place for the holding of the wheat.

I know this interpretation may be considered a stretch by some but why not exercise the gray matter with which He has graciously endowed us?

Anyone care to give their exposition of the wheat and the tares and their final disposition to challenge my clumsy attempt?

Perhaps I will look it up in my ancient Chafer's Systematic Theology. I have forgotten (or never read) his view.

Thanks
HankD

 

[Darrell C]

Greetings Darrell, I see Matthew 13 as the course of the church age even though the church is not mentioned in Matthew 13.

It does have application to the Church Age, but, as I mentioned, Christ is teaching within the revelation and understanding of the audience He is teaching at the time as well.

So how do we find application to that audience?

You and I know something that audience did not...the building of the Church through the confession of Christ.

However, let's jump through History to the Tribulation itself, at which time we will see the culmination of the Prophecy, at least in part (there will be similar circumstances at the end of the Millennial Kingdom), and an application that we would see that is incontrovertible. Now, what is our understanding of Israel (the primary original audience of Christ at the time of the teaching) and what Israel's role will be in that day.

It will be a matter of gathering both tares and wheat, the tares seen in the Goats of the Judgment of Matthew 25, and those which shall be told, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity, for I never knew you." The Garner is the Kingdom, and those that are saved, baptized with the Holy Ghost (regenerated, born again, born from above, born of God)...are the Children of the Kingdom.

While some will distinguish the Church from those who are born again during the Tribulation, on a basic level those born again during the Tribulation can be considered the Church as well, because there is only one Body of Christ, One Fold. That does not negate the fact that Israel is distinguished in Revelation, as she is throughout her entire History. She is specifically named by Tribe, and what that means is that we have conditions which are relevant specifically to Israel.

That is the correlation between the Children of the Kingdom in its first application to the audience this was first taught to. It is taught within the framework of the revelation provided men up to that point, and while we do not negate application to the Church, and that balance we have being privy to the mysteries revealed to us (which that audience did not have).

So we can affirm that the Children of the Kingdom are the Church, right? Our friend is correct that the field is not the Church, but, the fact that God is raising up Children of the Kingdom in the world does not negate the importance of the fact that the good seed is the Children of the Kingdom, and thus we can correlate the field to the Church.

Your exposition seems a bit fuzzy and nebulous to me (while mine is clumsy and somewhat indefinite).

Well, if I go into detail my antagonists complain about length, and if I try to keep it simple my antagonists complain that I left something out. But that's okay. At least it gets the discussion going, and I think in this thread we have some room to explore some issues relevant to a proper understanding of the Wheat and the Tares. I will also just remind anyone following the discussion that the thread was originally meant to follow up on a discussion of the Kingdom/s of Scripture, and how that impacts this particular parable.

So I will just remind you that my only point was in addressing your challenge to traditional dispensationalism, and my goal is to show you that this is not the case.

And I will break this up to make it easier to respond, and just say this is going to be a little rushed, so sorry its not going to be as detailed as I would like it to be.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I explained my reasoning for the Matthew 13 kingdom being a mixed multitude as was Israel and we know that from scripture Romans 9:6 ... For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" just as some/many/most within "Christendom" are not of the church (The church of the firstborn - Jesus Christ, this shown by tactic of the devil and his infiltration of the tares into the kingdom.

And that is not relevant to an extent that impacts our understanding, because we all acknowledge (or should) that God has always saved both Jew and Gentile. He didn't start saving people after He created Israel, and it is equally true that being a part of Israel wasn't salvation. It was the God-ordained means of relationship with God for that Age, but, that did not mean that Gentiles unfamiliar with the Covenant of Law had no hope of salvation.

Secondly, "Christendom" has to be properly placed in the context it deserves. It is a term describing the visible Church, and I think you understand that, but someone reading your post might not. So in short, it is a term describing the visible Church but does not necessarily represent the spiritual entity known as the Church, the Body of Christ, which is made up of those who have been restored to God in eternal union with Him, and, as a result of reconciliation are born again believers.

Third, you make the mistake of implying that Satan is successful in "infiltrating the Kingdom." That is not the case. This is why the field has to maintain its proper place, because that is what Satan infiltrates...the field...not the Church. Not the Kingdom.

That is why they are termed tares and removed.

So we can look at this from a perspective that while Satan may infiltrate Modern Christendom, and he does, he is not successfully implanting tares into the Kingdom, nor making the tares Children of he Kingdom.

Those that are Children of the Kingdom will be, when Christ returns, gathered unto Christ and go into that Kingdom which is not now in existence, but is the Kingdom that is relevant to a first century Jewish audience that is under Law and being taught within the framework of the revelation provided them.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And this verse separates the Just of the Old Testament and the Church.

The Old Testament Saint died not having been made perfect/complete through Christ, but, they were made perfect...when Christ died.

We see that they had not been eternally redeemed nor had their sins been forgiven through animal sacrifice (which was the provision for remission of sins that begins with Adam and Eve and runs through to the Offering of Christ Himself):


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


This is an important issue to understand, and study of Hebrews will bring out the great truth that no man can come into relationship with God...except through Christ Jesus.

BTW I am a dispensationalist of sorts (but not a cookie cutter dispie).

Hank, is that really necessary?

There's enough people on this forum that make snide comments about Dispensationalism, don't be one of them.

Rejection of the fact that there are differing Dispensations throughout the Ages is, in my view, one of the greatest blunders a Bible Student can make.

Now, back to topic, and let's leave the snide remarks for the peanut gallery, shall we?

The challenge:At the end of the age the tares are taken and bound first as opposed to the rapture of the saved first. Also "the barn" appears to be an earthly place for the holding of the wheat.

Not even relevant.

The Church is not raptured at the end of the Tribulation, Hank, the physically living Saints are.

So again, you pose no challenge to the Dispensationalist.

The only way one can impose a Post-Tribulation Rapture into the teachings of Scripture is to deny Revelation 20 and the thousand years so clearly stated...six times.

The Church is raptured as a whole, both living and dead, and if this occurs at the end of the Tribulation...then how is this...


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


...fulfilled?

So the only challenge that really exists here is whether you are going to challenge your own understanding and study resurrection and how it is taught. Those who are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation are mentioned:


Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


Not exactly how Paul describes the Rapture of the Church. And while it can be argued that it is an argument from silence, I disagree, we see clearly that those raised from the dead (and seemingly in glorified form because they are said to endure the entire Millennium) are specific to the Seven Year Tribulation and the Antichrist, who is specific to that period. We don't see both living and dead In Christ believers raised, and in fact we would then complicate Christ's teachings in numerous places. Primarily Matthew 25, where we see unbelievers destroyed, and believers entering into...

...the Kingdom.

And who are those characters? The Wheat and the Tares. The Sheep and the Goats.

We know that the unbelievers are gathered and destroyed from both Old Testament Prophecy (Ezekiel 39) as well as from Christ's Own teachings:


Luke 17:33-37

King James Version (KJV)


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


They are taken in judgment:


Matthew 25:41-46

King James Version (KJV)


41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


But what happens to the believers?


Matthew 25:31-34

King James Version (KJV)


31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


That is the gathering into His Garner. That is the gathering of the wheat and the tares that will take place at the end of this Age when Christ Returns.

And again, we see that the wheat is in fact properly called the Tares, because we distinguish between the "spirits of Just men made perfect" (those saints of faith that died before being made complete in Christ in regards to relationship to God and remission of sins on an Eternal Basis) and those who can properly be termed the Church of Christ, or, a you properly stated, the Church of Christ. Those born again during the Tribulation enter the Kingdom when they are saved, but they also enter into that Kingdom which is specific to that Age, the Millennial Kingdom. So we can, getting back to the original statement we are discussing, understand the field is not the Church, but, the Children of the Kingdom are the Church, and it is among the Children of the Kingdom we see that which is not genuine sown by Satan.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I know this interpretation may be considered a stretch by some but why not exercise the gray matter with which He has graciously endowed us?

Indeed, lol, let us exercise those little guys.

And in order to do that we have a lot of ground to cover, so no complaints about length.

Anyone care to give their exposition of the wheat and the tares and their final disposition to challenge my clumsy attempt?

Sure.

Perhaps I will look it up in my ancient Chafer's Systematic Theology. I have forgotten (or never read) his view.

Why not turned to the Word of God, Hank.

We should not rely on the efforts of those that have gone before us as a source for wisdom, let us ask of God, and He will give us that which we need.

Commentaries are great for giving us perspective we can consider, but only God can enlighten us in truth. Systematic Theologies are all going to have one problem the Word of God does not have...

...they are not inspired.

Thanks
HankD

No, thank you, lol, this takes us into pretty interesting territory, and an area that has generated a lot of bad feelings on this board.

But if we stick to the doctrine I can assure you it will be profitable.


God bless.

 

[HankD]

And that is not relevant to an extent that impacts our understanding, because we all acknowledge (or should) that God has always saved both Jew and Gentile. He didn't start saving people after He created Israel, and it is equally true that being a part of Israel wasn't salvation. It was the God-ordained means of relationship with God for that Age, but, that did not mean that Gentiles unfamiliar with the Covenant of Law had no hope of salvation.

Secondly, "Christendom" has to be properly placed in the context it deserves. It is a term describing the visible Church, and I think you understand that, but someone reading your post might not. So in short, it is a term describing the visible Church but does not necessarily represent the spiritual entity known as the Church, the Body of Christ, which is made up of those who have been restored to God in eternal union with Him, and, as a result of reconciliation are born again believers.

Third, you make the mistake of implying that Satan is successful in "infiltrating the Kingdom." That is not the case. This is why the field has to maintain its proper place, because that is what Satan infiltrates...the field...not the Church. Not the Kingdom.

That is why they are termed tares and removed.

So we can look at this from a perspective that while Satan may infiltrate Modern Christendom, and he does, he is not successfully implanting tares into the Kingdom, nor making the tares Children of he Kingdom.

Those that are Children of the Kingdom will be, when Christ returns, gathered unto Christ and go into that Kingdom which is not now in existence, but is the Kingdom that is relevant to a first century Jewish audience that is under Law and being taught within the framework of the revelation provided them.


Continued...

Generally speaking we seem to be in agreement.

One exception might be

So we can look at this from a perspective that while Satan may infiltrate Modern Christendom, and he does, he is not successfully implanting tares into the Kingdom, nor making the tares Children of he Kingdom

Understanding of course that the devil can never have ultimate victory over the defeat of the church because of the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell" shall not prevail over it.

Revelation to the church at Smyrna:
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation to the church at Pergamos
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation to the church at Thyatira
Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

It certainly seems that satan has infiltrated the church (in whatever these local churches in Revelation represent, they are churches of which Jesus Christ is Lord) both via his influence and even perhaps his presence in the church at Pergamos ("where satan's seat is").

Again this will be remedied at the end of the age when Jesus Christ will send His militia to take care of business:

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Also the great gathering and separation of the sheep from the goats is not a
an individual person separation but a separation of nations.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

My remark of "cookie cutter dispie" - no apology because it has been used against me and several others referring to Scofield dispensational types. I should have just said that without the labeling (oops I guess I did make an apologetic).

Ad hominems seem to be subtly creeping into the discussion of which we should both be of zero intolerance.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

One exception might be

Understanding of course that the devil can never have ultimate victory over the defeat of the church because of the promise of Christ that the "gates of hell" shall not prevail over it.

Again, we can't impose an implication that tares are anything but tares, which are not genuine results of the sowing of the seed.

Satan has never infiltrated the Church.

The "gates of Hell" have two potential meanings in my own perspective, which is first a simple understanding that members of the Body of Christ are not subject to the possibility of eternal judgment (that is a settled matter for the Church), as well as its euphemistic use in the culture of that day, meaning physical death itself.

Satan does not gain any victory at all over the Church by sowing his seed amongst the Children of the Kingdom. While this might hamper the efforts of the Children of God, it has no impact whatsoever in regards to salvation in reality.

When the seed is sown, the result is Children of the Kingdom, and tares being among them does not change what is actually genuine.

Revelation to the church at Smyrna:
Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation to the church at Pergamos
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation to the church at Thyatira
Revelation 2:24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

It certainly seems that satan has infiltrated the church (in whatever these local churches in Revelation represent, they are churches of which Jesus Christ is Lord) both via his influence and even perhaps his presence in the church at Pergamos ("where satan's seat is").

While reference is made to those truly belonging to Christ, I view all letters to actually be addressed to Christendom, rather than personal statements to genuine believers. If that is not the case, we have a contradiction in Christ's teaching:


Revelation 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


The call to overcome is general to those churches, and is in fact euphemistic for being saved.

See John 5:1-5 to see John speak of overcoming, how it is done, and what that means for those who overcome.

We do not look at the verse above as teaching that genuine believers must meet a certain level of performance or holiness, lest they be blotted from the Book of Life, because we are not saved by our righteousness(es) to begin with. Those who are blotted from the Book of Life are those who reject Christ.

So we either embrace loss of salvation based on sketchy exposition, or, we understand the generality of declarations made to a collective gathering, among whom are certainly tares.

Again this will be remedied at the end of the age when Jesus Christ will send His militia to take care of business:

Matthew 13
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Also the great gathering and separation of the sheep from the goats is not a
an individual person separation but a separation of nations.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

HankD

And we will actually see two similar events, at the end of the Tribulation, as well as at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Twice will God destroy His enemies on a grand scale, and both events end with a Judgment. The former, the Sheep and Goat Judgment, the latter, the Great White Throne Judgment.

And that's all (and more of, lol) the time I have this morning.

Thanks for the posts and participation, Some great topics of discussion which shall surely exercise, or perplex...those little grey cells.




God bless.

 

[HankD]

OK one big difference : I see the separation of the wheat and the tares not at the end of the millennial kingdom but at the end of the church age or the finality of the times of the gentiles.

As to the infiltration of satan and false teaching into what is commonly looked upon as the church (Christendom which includes cults, sects, orthodox, roman and anglican catholicism, protestantism, on and on...) I think it is obvious and is also supported by

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Also Matthew 13
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

So the two tactics (at least) of satan in his strategy to prevail against the church are tampering with the word of God and infiltration of the kingdom or "the mystery of iniquity".

Is not the defiled gospel of Rome no gospel at all?

HankD

 

[HankD]

When I say "satan has infiltrated the church" I mean of course the collective church consisting of local churches of all sorts of kinds, even "good" churches. In fact "good" churches are his primary target IMO.

As for the church of the firstborn he doesn't stand a chance although individuals within that holy church of saints whose names are written in heaven can be affected.

HankD

 

[Darrell C]

OK one big difference : I see the separation of the wheat and the tares not at the end of the millennial kingdom but at the end of the church age or the finality of the times of the gentiles.

I agree, I simply pointed out that there will be two gatherings, and that we can make application of this parable in the Millennial Kingdom as well. The teaching will have application then as well.

As to the infiltration of satan and false teaching into what is commonly looked upon as the church (Christendom which includes cults, sects, orthodox, roman and anglican catholicism, protestantism, on and on...) I think it is obvious and is also supported by

And that is not really relevant to the teaching in regards to who the Children of the Kingdom are. One either is a child of God or they are a tare.

And I will just run through these and see what might be deemed relevant to the teaching.

And just have a few minutes before the boss gets home, so just filling a little time, Hank.

Matthew 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

So what Kingdom is in view?

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Not an identical teaching to the one above, which is positive. This one speaks of influence of men who were part of the same religion which all of Israel were engaging in. the difference though, is that when we have a born again leader that is abusing his authority and erroneous in doctrine, if he is indeed born again, and not a tare, he is still a child of God. The Pharisees in relation to those who worshiped God in truth would have the pharisees as tares.

Personally I do not assume that all Pharisees were evil men, at least, no more so than anyone who was an Old Testament Saint and not understanding of the instruction the Law provided from a spiritual perspective.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Again, we can have children of God that are erroneous in doctrine and practice. We are not usually regenerated in a state of doctrinal understanding. I can think of numerous views I thought were correct but at this time see the error in. Doesn't mean I was committing the error warned about in regards to the Pharisees and Sadducees. But if I could go back in time and stand beside myself I would say "Beware his doctrine...it has error."

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

And this is the true failure I see in the Pharisees (Sadducees are a different story). This is why Christ said they sat in Moses' Seat, and what they told them they were to do, but not to follow after their works.

That is quite different than tares and wheat in my view, which has in view a matter of genuine or that which is not genuine.

And there is a big difference between those who were in error in Doctrine and Practice under the Law and the difference between those who are born again believers in this Age. In this Age a Christian is genuine and a Child of God if he is eternally indwelt of God and born again. The tares can talk the talk and even appear to walk the walk, but they are indiscernible until the time of harvest. IT is their fruit, as Christ taught, that we will know them by.

The fact is...all of us are hypocrites at times. That doesn't negate whether we are children of God and Children of the Kingdom (the spiritual rule and reign of God, as opposed to the millennial Kingdom).

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

I will have to give this one some more thought, but, I would say I would view this as primarily a matter of Church Discipline. The reason being that in the parable the tares are not rooted out, and here the evil person is cast out. Likely in hopes of bringing about a repentant heart for the sin. I think you could make application, because we see fruit that is evil, and identification occurs when the fruit appears. But the Parable of the Tares in primarily eschatological in nature, in my view.

Also Matthew 13
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

I don't see this as relevant because the fourth soil is the only one that actually shows conversion.

We would have to see loss of salvation implied in this which contradicts far too many passages to be entertained as a realistic interpretation.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

So the two tactics (at least) of satan in his strategy to prevail against the church are tampering with the word of God and infiltration of the kingdom or "the mystery of iniquity".

Again, Satan does not infiltrate any of the Kingdoms we see taught in Scripture. He will not ever get into the Body of Christ, nor will he even be in the Millennial Kingdom. His work is to place those who look like Christians, sound like Christians, and even act like Christians in proximity to the Children of God. But those who are not children of God are never actually in the Kingdom of God, whether that is the spiritual rule and reign of God in the hearts of His people, the Literal Kingdom that Christ establishes at His Return, or the Eternal State when this creation passes away and God creates a new heaven and Earth.

Is not the defiled gospel of Rome no gospel at all?

HankD

Depends on what Catholic is preaching it.

I have spoken with Catholics that understand that Christ is the Savior and that is the Jesus they preach. Not all of them bow down before statues of Mary or think that praying to saints has the value some place in it.

But in large part, their error doe not change the fact that many who go to Catholic Churches are simply ignorant of the Word of God. That is true of many who are in Protestant and Evangelical churches as well.

Not everyone goes to Christian Doctrinal Discussion Forums, Hank. We are the fanatics, lol. Bible thumpers. Or is that Bible wumpers?

When I say "satan has infiltrated the church" I mean of course the collective church consisting of local churches of all sorts of kinds, even "good" churches. In fact "good" churches are his primary target IMO.

And that has to be distinguished. And when we do, we see that this is more the lesson of the wheat and the tares.

When we look at the field, we see a difference between those groups we would consider false churches, so we could discount them as representative of the tares. Meaning certain groups normally acknowledged as cults because their doctrine is so far from Christian Doctrine no-one assumes they are genuine to begin with.

It is just my view that the tares primarily speak about those who are not saved active in these "good churches" you speak about.

As for the church of the firstborn he doesn't stand a chance although individuals within that holy church of saints whose names are written in heaven can be affected.

HankD

Sure.

Let me throw this out there: I take a look at some of the accepted groups we have today and am amazed at some of the doctrines they hold. When we look at the Seven Letters to the Seven Churches, we also see established churches presumed to be an audience of Christians. I think that in that day of judgment we are going to see some of these groups exposed as tares, but, that does not mean that there are no Christians within them. I have looked at it this way for a long time, there are some people too ignorant of the Gospel to be saved, despite being in a "good church," and there are some people too ignorant to be damned, despite being in a "bad church."

Doesn't take a great theologian to be saved, just faith in Christ. And if we look at the many various teaching concerning Christ, we see there are some far out notions, which is nothing new. Look at the example of Israel and Gentiles, we see men saved in both groups who did not have the revelation we have today. What they did have, though, was faith in God. So I do not look as ignorance as always being a bad thing, because God judges each individual based on their understanding of what He has revealed to them. So the old saying could be applied, "ignorance is bliss." James warns us, "Be ye not many masters (teachers), for we shall receive the greater condemnation.

And this is why Christ may have come down so hard on the "masters of Israel," because they should have known better.


God bless.