When are Christians forgiven?

[Bro. Curtis]

Well I don't think I'll be doing any murders or adultery tommorow.....

David committed both. Now if he got up from his bed after his episode with Bethsheba(sp?), and slipped and broke his skull, would he have gone to Abraham's bosom, or to hades ?

 

[Me2]

Can I Chime in also..

Forgiveness and repentence is for self.

my relationship with God and my fellow man dependes on my spiritual condition. I retain the right to forgive myself first...for being selfish and holding back the Love that God himself has for me.

After that..

Im sure He'll Give me enough to share.

Sue, keep on asking for the love..
however much you need...

and I can say this in all honesty..When God First met each and every one of us..He forgave us..
Later we found out just what he meant..when He was introducing us to his Son...

Me2

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

Your answer, "Well I don't think I'll be doing any murders or adultery tommorow"

is an evasion of my questions, which demonstrates the irrationality of your position. If you disagree, then I suggest providing an answer.

You wrote, "David committed both. Now if he got up from his bed after his episode with Bethsheba(sp?), and slipped and broke his skull, would he have gone to Abraham's bosom, or to hades ?"

First of all, Abraham's bosom and hades are identical. Hades is the Greek word for Sheol (the Hebrew word), which is Abraham's bosom, in the Old Testament. Gehenna is the eternal lake of fire, and the English "hell" can mean either hades or Gehenna. This is where your confusion comes from.

Secondly, if you're at all familiar with the Scriptures, you would know that David repented and God forgave him in 2 Samuel 12:13-14 -

David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child that is born to you shall die."

What I am speaking of is grave acts of sin that go unrepented. Sin such as those listed by St. Paul in 1 Cor 6.

Also, notice the presence of the temporal punishment of sin even after David was forgiven by the Lord.

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Wasn't an evasion, it was a joke. Sorry you couldn't tell.

My question dealt with when David got off the bed, not later when he repented. Seems like your'e the one evading. Nice answer, lots of big words, but you missed the entire point.

Somebody as well read as yourself should have caught that.

[ January 30, 2003, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "Wasn't an evasion, it was a joke. Sorry you couldn't tell."

Oh no, I could tell that it was a joke. I'm just pointing out that you evaded my questions with a joke.

So, basically, you're saying that nothing you do in the future can cause you to lose your salvation?

What if you commit, with full knowledge and consent, the formal acts of adultery and murder tomorrow?

Would you still be saved? Or would you say that you were just never saved to begin with? Which begs the question, "How do you know that you are saved now since you don't know infallibly whether you'll fall into such sin in your future?"

You wrote, "My question dealt with when David got off the bed, not later when he repented. Seems like your'e the one evading. Nice answer, lots of big words, but you missed the entire point."

Oh no, I got the point, if you would have paid closer attention to my response.

You asked, "if [David] got up from his bed after his episode with Bethsheba, and slipped and broke his skull, would he have gone to Abraham's bosom, or to hades ?"

And I showed how David repented, and the answer to your question was in Nathan's response, which I quoted, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die".

And I also said, "What I am speaking of is grave acts of sin that go unrepented. Sin such as those listed by St. Paul in 1 Cor 6."

The natural consequence of my statement above, and thus the definitive answer to your question, is that Abraham would have entered Gehenna (if he didn't repent, of course, which is part of the hypothetical situation).

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 02:03 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

In my experience, sins don't go unrepented very long. The Holy Spirit doing karate chops inside me does a lot to bring about submission, and repentance.

And no, in my studies, I am led to believe nothing I can do will get me out of going to Heaven, so why try ?

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

You said, "In my experience, sins don't go unrepented very long. The Holy Spirit doing karate chops inside me does a lot to bring about submission, and repentance."

According to your soteriology, this has nothing to do with your salvation since you're eternally secure. If you're eternally secure, then why are you even bringing this up? Or, are you acknowledging that unrepented grave sins cost you your salvation, until you repent?

You wrote, "in my studies, I am led to believe nothing I can do will get me out of going to Heaven"

I suggest that you study St. Paul's epistle to the Corinthians, esp. Ch. 6 where he writes:

Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

And I also suggest that you study the 5th Chapter of Galatians:

Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

What if you commit, with full knowledge and consent, the formal acts of adultery and murder tomorrow and die without repenting of these sins?

Would you still be saved?

The answer is really easy: Yes or No?

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 02:27 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I'll bet you get pretty nervous every time you sin, also.

The reason I know I'm saved is that I cannot sin without conviction.

And I've read paul's letters. Lots of times. I would be considered a sinner, (fornicator, theif, etc) if not for the blood of Christ.

Now if I could lose salvation, I'd have already blown it.

I disagree with you Carson. Yes. I am saved. Saved. I will remain saved, "sealed unto the day of redemption". Eph 4:30

[ January 30, 2003, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "Yes. I am saved. Saved. I will remain saved, "sealed unto the day of redemption"."

In another post, you quoted 2 Tim 3:16, which says, "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction".

Well, let's see what Scripture has to say about your confidence in your salvation, irregardless of what you do in the future, even if you publicly renounce Christ:

"[W]hoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33).

Are these words of Jesus Christ true?

If they're true, then if you publicly renounce Christ tomorrow, then you will either (1) lose your salvation, (2) were never saved in the first place thus you can't say that you are eternally secure at this moment in time, or (3) Christ will acknowledge you before his Father in heaven because this piece of Scripture is not true (either Christ lied or we have a mistake in the manuscript).

Which is it Curtis? 1 or 2 or 3?

God bless,

Carson

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Did Peter lose his salvation when he denied knowing Christ ?

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

I don't know, did he? I see Peter reaffirming his love for Christ three times while Christ cooked for him and the other Apostles on the shore of Galilee after Christ's resurrection in John's Gospel. And, Peter ended his life being crucified for Christ as Christ's witness in Rome.

John 20:17-19 -

[Jesus] said to [Peter] the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you girded yourself and walked where you would; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish to go." (This he said to show by what death he was to glorify God.)

Are you going to answer my question?

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I answered it. I will remain saved for eternity.

I will never deny Christ. I can't renounce my Salvation. I don't understand the rest of your question, but I am saved. And I will stay saved.

So if Peter was struck dead after the crow sounded off, say the noise gave him a coronary or sumpthin' like that, would you guys be calling somebody else the first pope ?

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "I will never deny Christ."

But, what if you do? That's the question.

Will you be saved?

God bless,

Carson

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It does say deny, doesn't it ? Not renounce ? If you look to the verse that says....

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Ashamed of...see ? There is still a relationship there. We are still his children. I know a few times when i was ashamed of my daughter, but I can't call her somebody else's now, can I ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

If I deny Christ, it would be an outward rebellion, meaning nothing, for I cannot deny him. His Holy Spirit is inside me, to stay.

I could only deny him with my words.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

You wrote, "It does say deny, doesn't it ? Not renounce ? If you look to the verse that says....

I didn't quote Mark. I quoted Matthew, and the Greek word is arneomai, which means "deny" (Strong's #720):

"[W]hoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33).

You wrote, "If I deny Christ, it would be an outward rebellion, meaning nothing, for I cannot deny him. His Holy Spirit is inside me, to stay. I could only deny him with my words."

So, basically, you're saying that if someone puts a gun up to your head and says that they'll spare your life if you deny Christ, and if you deny him before your would-be killers, then you will still be saved?

That's not what Christ says:

"[W]hoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33).

And His Word is Truth, but sometimes I wonder, Curtis, if you really believe that? And whether you think that your Baptist pastor's word is really the truth over and above the words of Jesus?

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I believe that if a gun was at my head, and I denied Christ, I would still be saved, just like Peter was, when he denied Christ.

i don't know how many more ways you can ask, but my answer, for future reference, is what the bible tells me...

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

[ January 30, 2003, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Also, to support my inability to deny Christ....

The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. (Psalms 121:7)

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Curtis,

Let's compare your words with the Word of God:

Curtis: I believe that if a gun was at my head, and I denied Christ, I would still be saved

Bible: "whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 10:33).

Is Christ lying? or are you wrong?

This is a mutually exclusive situation, and it's basically your words versus the word of God.

in Truth,

Carson

 

[I Am Blessed 24]

Originally posted by Bro. Curtis:
In my experience, sins don't go unrepented very long. The Holy Spirit doing karate chops inside me does a lot to bring about submission, and repentance.

And no, in my studies, I am led to believe nothing I can do will get me out of going to Heaven, so why try ?

Bro. Curtis

I agree. I am a lamb and I belong to the Shepherd. Lambs may stray into a mud puddle; but they won't stay there very long.

Carson

If I committed murder tomorrow I would still go to Heaven but I sure wouldn't have many crowns to throw at the Savior's feet!

Also, even when the prodigal son was out in the world, his father was still his father and was still keeping his home open for him!

He did not lose his home or his father...he was just out of fellowship. His father had already forgiven him; he needed to repent and ask forgiveness to get back into a right relationship with him (for his sake, not his fathers).

Sue

[ January 30, 2003, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: I Am Blessed 16 ]